thread Rockbox_on_iPod in MisticRiver ?!

[stuffedspacedog]

No need, for Rockbox the forums on the Rockbox site are pretty much all you need.

"Misticriver, for iriver enthusiasts"? No?

Personally, I think the iPod is already discussed quite enough in other forums.

[marco]

i voted yes. we are open-minded, and since more and more iriver users have an ipod, why not talk about it here?

[ShyAnne]

Voted "No".

It's really not about being "open-minded" vs. "closed-minded", honestly that's ridiculous in this particular instance. It's taking the 'politically correct' philosophy and applying it to DAPs. A DAP is just a DAP, y'know? It's not an individual facing discrimination.

On the same flawed philosophy, if a "Rockbox on iPod" forum were added then a "Rockbox on Sansa E2xx" would have to be added as well as "Rockbox on the iAudio X5", and so on. There's already a site that discusses every DAP other than iPod at anythingbutipod.com, so no need for this site to become a repeat of that one.

This site is MisticRiver. There's already sections for those wanting to discuss other DAPs in the "What DAP are you?" area. For anyone wanting to specifically discuss Rockbox on the iPod there's already rockbox.org, iLounge, etc.

[Step666]

Originally Posted by ShyAnne

There's already sections for those wanting to discuss other DAPs in the "What DAP are you?" area.

Not when the poll was started, there wasn't.

As for going elsewhere, I don't believe that the RockBox fora have as nice an attitude as MR. No offence to the RockBox team, it's just that MR is an exceptionally well-run forum.
And, as for iLounge, I'd rather piss glass than go back there.

[Llorean]

No offense, but the signal to noise ratio here at Mistic River is somewhat horrid. The Rockbox forums are technical forums. They're incredibly well run, we just enforce the rules and expect poster to read them as they agree to in signing up. I wouldn't say "I don't like the rules" means the same thing as "they aren't well run."

As we provide support for thousands of users, for free, I think requiring they both make use of the search function and read the manual before asking a question is in no way unreasonable. Would you say any of our rules are?

At least there, you can easily know if you're getting an answer from someone who is an expert, or at least very well versed, in the subject matter. Quite often I'm shocked at what ends up getting presented as facts here, even insofar as people attempting to describe how the internals of Rockbox work while clearly never having read the source of verifying anything.

I personally would never recommend someone seek help with the official version of Rockbox here, simply because there's nobody consistently watching the answers and making sure that harmful information is removed or not dispersed. You have a great social forum here, and a great community, but it's not the right place for seeking technical or factual information about our software.

[Step666]

Originally Posted by Llorean

I wouldn't say "I don't like the rules" means the same thing as "they aren't well run."

I didn't say they weren't well run, I just think that MR is better.
It's a personal preference, that's all.

[ShyAnne]

Originally Posted by Step666

Not when the poll was started, there wasn't.

There was, it just wasn't as extensive as it is now. Back when the poll started, the forum for discussion of other brands was called "Close Encounters of Another DAP" and didn't have separate sections for common brands.

Originally Posted by Step666

As for going elsewhere, I don't believe that the RockBox fora have as nice an attitude as MR. No offence to the RockBox team, it's just that MR is an exceptionally well-run forum.

Hmm, not entirely sure those points fit together. But I believe the first sentence is on the right track, especially the word "attitude". It's a question of atmosphere rather than how each site's fora are run. I believe both are well run.

The atmosphere here at MisticRiver is warm and welcoming while still offering plenty of real help. The Rockbox fora offer real help as well but the atmosphere tends to be rather cold, perhaps not intentionally but it's there. Can't think of a better analogy but to say if it were a person it would have Asperger's Syndrome particularly in the social aspect.

Disclaimer toward misinterpretation prevention: That last statement solely refers to the general atmosphere of that site's message fora, not the site's rules, regulations, FAQ, and certainly not the person(s) who run(s) it or any particular poster(s) over there.

But considering the frequent changes in Rockbox firmware, I still think their site is the best place to discuss/get help regarding that particular firmware, including for the iPod. A dedicated site is more apt to have the most current information. Also, posting about possible problems with Rockbox for the iPod will reach the firmware developers more quickly if posted over there rather than here.

[Llorean]

Considering I literally have asperger's syndrome, and am responsible for the majority of how the Rockbox forums are run, you're probably right.

But most of the rules are agreed upon by everyone, simply because we want all the posts to be on topic, related to Rockbox, and useful when people make use of the search feature. It's not meant to be "cold", but casual conversation really isn't welcome because it's not productive, and it makes the place less useful for future members who try to use the search feature. So, while it's "cold", this is intentional since it's a technical forum, rather than a discussion forum. That's also why the rules are enforced at least fairly strictly.

Basically, at our forums, we expect that users have read and follow the rules, and hold them to that, so in general any coldness is often due to the fact that they've already shown that they're unwilling to read those rules. An off-topic question or an answered-in-the-manual question are both very likely to receive a very lot of coldness in the answer just because the rules are very explicit on those, but so few of our posters ever read them before posting, despite a bold warning while they're signing up for the site that they're expected to and will be held to.

[Step666]

Originally Posted by ShyAnne

There was, it just wasn't as extensive as it is now. Back when the poll started, the forum for discussion of other brands was called "Close Encounters of Another DAP" and didn't have separate sections for common brands.

Yeah, I know.

Originally Posted by ShyAnne

Hmm, not entirely sure those points fit together. But I believe the first sentence is on the right track, especially the word "attitude". It's a question of atmosphere rather than how each site's fora are run.

Yes, 'attitude' wasn't the ideal word, sadly sometimes large parts of my vocabulary escape me. However, regarding your other point, I personally believe that the atmosphere here at MR can be attributed, in the large part, to the Mods, Admin and the way the site is run - to argue otherwise is a huge slap-in-the-face and grossly unfair.
This place is relaxed, easy-going and friendly without succumbing to elements any worse than myself or BBD. And when I say I believe it's MR is a batter forum, I'm not talking about the RockBox forum specifically (in fact it's strict ethos probably keeps it better in line than a lot of places but at the cost of having a friendly, approachable air) but, rather, all other fora I have, so far, visited. Places like iLounge and many other fora I've had reason to either join or read, in an attempt to be easy-going and allow people to chat about, they just end up with fanboys or arseholes taking over - the number of fora ruined by the fact that the Mods let people run riot is incredible.
And yet, despite how easy it must be to end up sliding in one direction or the other, MR remains a great place to visit whilst still providing large amounts of helpful information to people.

So, I say again, MR has IMO the best atmosphere of any internet forum I have ever stumbled across and that is, in no small way, down to the excellent team running and maintaining it.

Originally Posted by ShyAnne

But considering the frequent changes in Rockbox firmware, I still think their site is the best place to discuss/get help regarding that particular firmware, including for the iPod. A dedicated site is more apt to have the most current information. Also, posting about possible problems with Rockbox for the iPod will reach the firmware developers more quickly if posted over there rather than here.

By that measure though, it could be argued that MR having a RockBox section is completely redundant, that anyone who wants information on it should go over to the RockBox forum instead.
I know that's not what you're saying and I'm not ignoring the fact that there is some distinction between having content regarding 'RockBox on iRiver DAPs' and 'RockBox on iPods', given this is an iRiver forum. But I personally believe that if there are MR members with iPods who are interested in RockBox who want to talk about it here and can do so in a polite and reasonable manner, then there's no reason why there shouldn't be a thread on it - it's not like we're renaming the site to PodRiver...

Originally Posted by Llorean

Basically, at our forums, we expect that users have read and follow the rules, and hold them to that, so in general any coldness is often due to the fact that they've already shown that they're unwilling to read those rules. An off-topic question or an answered-in-the-manual question are both very likely to receive a very lot of coldness in the answer just because the rules are very explicit on those, but so few of our posters ever read them before posting, despite a bold warning while they're signing up for the site that they're expected to and will be held to.

I'm not saying you're wrong to want that to be the case or to react in such a manner but to expect everyone to do all the relevant background reading and to follow the rules is a tad naive.

[Llorean]

Yes, it is naive, which is why we don't ban them immediately when they don't. Instead we tell them, clearly, that the rules are enforced and they need to before asking any future questions. And, depending on a few factors, we'll often answer that first question of theirs anyway (a lot depends on whether their post can be considered readable, and how many rules were violated by it beyond the 'read the manual and search' rule). At the very very most, if it's something clearly in the manual itself, we'll lock the thread and mention that it's in the manual on first problems, nothing worse.

[ShyAnne]

Originally Posted by Step666

However, regarding your other point, I personally believe that the atmosphere here at MR can be attributed, in the large part, to the Mods, Admin and the way the site is run - to argue otherwise is a huge slap-in-the-face and grossly unfair.

Wow, "slap-in-the-face" ..."grossly unfair"? Hmm, employing a pogo stick to jump to conclusions? Who is attempting to "argue otherwise", or even argue at all for that matter. Relax

My second point merely stated: It's a question of atmosphere rather than how each site's fora are run. It did not in any way imply that either atmosphere is "better" or "worse", nor did it advance or disparage the efforts of any particular person(s) in creating or maintaining any particular atmosphere. Whether or not either is "better" is entirely dependent upon personal preference as you have already acknowledged twice. So far I have not stated a preference, merely an acknowledgment that two different atmospheres exist.

You seem to want a preference to be stated, so to that end I will say that I do very much prefer the atmosphere here at MR. However that does not mean I can't appreciate a different atmosphere, such as the one at Rockbox. People do have different preferences, including in creating and maintaining an atmosphere as well as appreciating an existing one. The fact that Asperger's syndrome apparently is a factor governing the atmosphere over there is significant in that respect.

Agreed that there certainly are fora that are ruined by fanboy rantings or certain persons' asinine behavior toward others that is allowed to go unchecked even though similar behavior, even if only in defense, is never tolerated from others. Thankfully, that does not happen here and does not happen at Rockbox.org either, despite the decidedly different atmospheres at each. That is what was meant by "both are well run".

Originally Posted by Step666

But I personally believe that if there are MR members with iPods who are interested in RockBox who want to talk about it here and can do so in a polite and reasonable manner, then there's no reason why there shouldn't be a thread on it - it's not like we're renaming the site to PodRiver...

A "thread" is not the same as an entire forum, I don't think anyone would object to a thread. As to an entire forum, there are also MR members with Sansa E2xx players and Cowon/iAudio X5 players who also are using and/or interested in Rockbox. So where to draw the line? Tell the Sansa and Cowon owners "Sorry, only Rockbox on iPod"? Creating multiple Rockbox-on-other-brand fora to the point where this ceases to be an iriver site and becomes a secondary Rockbox site or just another general DAP site? I don't believe either is the right answer, so opening a special Rockbox on iPod forum would create more problems than it may solve.

Originally Posted by Step666

I'm not saying you're wrong to want that to be the case or to react in such a manner but to expect everyone to do all the relevant background reading and to follow the rules is a tad naive.

Just an aside, but odd you should mention the above. High intelligence combined with a certain (at times even shocking) naiveté regarding social clues and how to expect others to behave in a given situation is a hallmark of Asperger's. On a trivia note, Canadian comedian Dan Akroyd has officially diagnosed Aperger's syndrome. Speculation is that Bill Gates may have it as well but that's only speculation, no official diagnosis.

[Llorean]

Well that's one very, very clear difference between Mistic River and Rockbox too. Not just the asperger's thing, but we *aren't* social forums. This is a "community." We explicitly changed the word "community" to "technical" to make it clear the Rockbox forums aren't really for chit-chat, but should really be seen as a support venue.

They exist for when people can't understand what's written in the manual, or are trying to discuss improvements they're working on, or need to ask questions about the codebase. It's entirely intended to be "Query->Response" modeled. This is also to help make sure the right information gets in the hands of the right developers.

So it's no surprise the atmosphere is different. For most people a purely technical venue is going to seem a lot colder than a social forum where there's a location to have a poll on how tall you are, etc. It's hardly a surprise at all.

But in all honesty, we have to hold people to the "read the documentation first" bit for a few reasons. The first is that we spent a lot of work on the documentation, and rewriting the whole installation instructions every time someone asks rather than simply pointing them at the manual will take a lot of time. There are about six dedicated "Experts" in our forums who provide most of the support. One of them is actually your very own Febs, who helped write a good portion of our rules. With over 10,000 registered members, increasing by a good deal daily, and the fact that we're all volunteers, repeating things unnecessarily would make it impossible for us to work on anything else, either our own hobbies or any coding or documentation work we do for Rockbox.

If Rockbox were something our users purchased, rather than simply received as a gift, they could expect friendly support. But as the license clearly states we don't even guarantee that it will work or serve any purpose, a dedicated support team is a bit of a high expectation. We do what we can, but the rules are in place more for us than for anyone else: They make sure the forums are kept managed so that we can find the questions that really do need answering, the ones that haven't been asked before.

And as a point of interest, I read 4000 posts a month there. That's probably enough to put even a socially normal person on edge, considering how many are "u nd to pls tell me how to install iPL" (iPL is not our software, and of course, we have a bare minimum standard of spelling so that our non-English speakers can participate with machine translation). I'd actually hazard that my asperger's helps in our forums, because while part of it is missing social context, another is being very very literal, which means I tend to respond to most responses about equally levelly (most of the time) no matter how "stupid" one might seem, the rules are applied as logically as I can do so.

Of course, this causes problems communicating here, because people often interpret someone who speaks literally (which make sense in text anyway, where there is no emotional context from body language or intonation) as someone who's either being a jerk, or incredibly arrogant, rather than someone who simply speaks in a technical and literal manner. They read emotion where there really isn't any, because I'm broken that way.

[andrewmel]

I like the way the RB forum is run. I dont read anything like 4000 posts a month, even combining all the fora I read, though there was a time when I read *everything* written here.

The style of each forum, as has been clearly stated, is different, but both are very good. I have been to many other fora, that are also different, and found few that I would consider good, and only a handful that I would consider excellent.

I did initially find Llorean abrupt, but have come to not only accept that as a style that works with a technical forum like RB, but to consider it almost necessary.

Here, however, the style is more forgiving, until a more distant line is crossed. It can then become abrupt.

RB on iPod thread? Yep, I think it would be a good thing. I have been listening to an iPod exclusively for some time now, and put RB on it within 48 hours of purchase. I am a long way from the only regular here that has done so.


a

[ronin510]

I voted yes because I was just looking for that very topic when I stumbled upon this site.

[Natchie]

I voted yes because MR forum has more of a handholding approach in helping someone like me to install and work out the bugs of RB. Context is everything in the beginning. Afterward, with increased level of experience, then RB forum would be a better choice.

The fact that we can talk about these things here does make MR rather unique, and with great contributions from the members, I feel more at home here.