Firmware-- pure evil and the destruction of my T10

[emberly]

I have to say, iRiver is THE most infuriating brand for drivers. My T10 never loaded as a UMS like it was suppose to- I have to download all of the iRiver stuff from the site, I've since lost my CD with drivers so once again, new computer, another zilllion things to download.

Well the best suggestion I thought I had got was to upgrade my firmware. MY poor little T10 1GB never saw it coming. The poor thing awaited its upgrade and completed, so I turned it off-- and now it won't turn on. I've looked on the iRiver site and can't find a thing to fix it. The battery is new, fully charged, but it just won't turn on.

How can I bring my player back?

[Sesquash]

I can suggest that you plug the USB cable in, and then turn on the player to try and engage the USB-capture routine. If that does not work, you might have to open up the T10 and find the chip that holds the firmware, ie: an EPROM chip. To clear the EPROM, you would access the pins that clears memory and returns it to a wait and record state. Iriver could help you there. Once you do that, you will have the EPROM (Erasable-Programmable-Read-Only-Memory) in the proper 'ready state' to receive a download (firmware). I believe that you have a 'bricked' EPROM in that it is partially polarized but with non-conforming, corrupted data. This must be erased.

[mixin]

If the EPROM is cleared in such a fashion, how do you propose that the firmware is reloaded back on?

[Step666]

Originally Posted by Sesquash

To clear the EPROM, you would access the pins that clears memory and returns it to a wait and record state. Iriver could help you there.

No they couldn't.
iRiver aren't going to actively encourage people to open up their players.


First things first, if you still have any warranty left, then contact iRiver.

[mixin]

Originally Posted by Step666

No they couldn't.

They could, but they won't.

[Step666]

Well yes, Mr Pedantic

But, like I said, there's no way iRiver will encourage people to dismantle their DAPs.

[Sesquash]

Originally Posted by mixin

If the EPROM is cleared in such a fashion, how do you propose that the firmware is reloaded back on?

Hello,

You do this by having an EPROM burning program or module. I used to do this in my Atari 800 days and had a stand-alone interface that allowed me to reprogram the EPROM. That is how they place the first initial firmware at iRiver's factory. You also can bridge two pins that come out of the EPROM to enact a clearing of its memory locations and their corrupted memory contents.

The truth of the matter, is...that there is no such true thing as a 'bricked' (ie: fatal, non-recoverable state) EPROM-based device. It is never permanently damaged unless by a voltage spike, or E.S.D. (Electro Static Discharge) damage. You only need to clear the EPROM as I have stated, and download your firmware back onto it from its virgin state. Never throw away your DAP if you have 'bricked' your player. Send it to Iriver or take it into a repair depot that has an EPROM download module (hardware) along with a copy of your BIN file (firmware) and they can easily do it for you. When the consumer 'bricks' his/her player with a firmware download failed attempt, all that has happened is that they now have a corrupted and incomplete PARTIAL programming on the EPROM and again, that can be EASILY corrected with a clearing and reprogramming of said EPROM.

Cheers!

Ses.

[Sesquash]

Originally Posted by Step666

Well yes, Mr Pedantic

But, like I said, there's no way iRiver will encourage people to dismantle their DAPs.

---------------------------

To clear the EPROM, you would not have to open up your player. You would access it with a module that has a USB interface....much the same way that an UNCORRUPTED EPROM allows itself to receive a new flash (reprogramming) by means of the firmware gateway that is written into the firmware itself and allows for a USB cable transfer in CAPTURE MODE of the T10 or whatever flash player.

*** If a USB connect to to the EPROM chip can not be achieved, then you can follow along to plan 'B'. below***

Another way to clear the EPROM..but I do NOT recommend it to the casual user...is to apply voltage and or a SHORT (connective) PATH to the PINS of the EPROM that receive input for the wipe of the EPROM. This would only be attempted by someone adept by training or prior experience. I did this very thing to clear out my EPROM on my ROUTER after I 'bricked' it by a corrupted firmware upgrade. I applied a connective pathway between the two pins needed for this routine via a fine strand wire as I applied power to my ROUTER. That cleared out the EPROM and placed it into a wait state. It then accepted my second attempt at a custom firmware download and I now have my ROUTER back. Same method could be applied for any EPROM based unit, Router, or DAP.

Again reader...NEVER, NEVER throw away a 'bricked' whatever!!!! It is only one EPROM wipe and firmware download from being back to full usage once more!. You only merely need to get it looked to by yourself, or at a service depot. You would only not do this if the cost of service was greater than 66 percent the cost of a new unit. You would wish to buy new then.

Ses

[Step666]

Originally Posted by Sesquash

To clear the EPROM, you would not have to open up your player.

That's as may be but you have already advised the OP that a possible course of action is to open up the DAP and that iRiver would aid them in doing so, which is not true.

I'm not arguing with anything else you're saying, just that iRiver are not going to advise a customer to open up their DAP and, if the OP has any warranty remaining, the first course of action is to see if you can RMA your DAP.

[Sesquash]

Originally Posted by Step666

That's as may be but you have already advised the OP that a possible course of action is to open up the DAP and that iRiver would aid them in doing so, which is not true.

I'm not arguing with anything else you're saying, just that iRiver are not going to advise a customer to open up their DAP and, if the OP has any warranty remaining, the first course of action is to see if you can RMA your DAP.

------------------------------------------------------
Your point is noted, so therefore....

About having to open up, or not open up the DAP to clear the EPROM, would be based upon if the person had an EPROM flash module that accessed through the USB port as its interface, or their service depot did. If not, then he/she, or the service technician would have to do it via a schematic and the required pins on the chip itself. This is not as daunting as it sounds. Truly!

If you are in warranty, you would not even consider opening up your DAP or taking other steps other than merely sending it back to iRiver or to a repair depot. After warranty has expired, and you find yourself with a 'bricked' DAP, would you consider to find out how on your particular DAP to clear the EPROM and then reapply the firmware. I suggested that iRiver might help the owner with the location of the EPROM and what pins must be accessed to clear the chip. If they would not be receptive to that, then it would be up to the owner to secure that information. One point though, whether manufacturers consider a failed or partial firmware update as a 'flaw' or 'defect' of the ability to firmware upgrade----is to be seen, and that if it would be considered a warranty item. If this is not considered a warranty repair with no cost to the owner---then my post shows that there is a way to bring their DAP back up to running order, and not to be thrown away into the trash. Any unit from a new Blu-Ray disc player to the T10 that can be upgraded via firmware flashing, will ALWAYS have an EPROM chip in it, rather than a static ROM chip to hold BIOS or FIRMWARE.

I hope that that clears up my post. It seems that most people feel that if they have 'bricked/corrupted their DAP, that the only course is to throw it away or slip it into the back of a drawer, hence the term 'brick' in the first place. (smile). My posts are written to inform that there is no true and permanent damage other than a corrupted code flashed into the EPROM. As I have stated, this is most easily fixed when the consumer does due diligence in getting the EPROM cleared and firmware once more downloaded to it.

[kajero]

Can you explain what you are talking about to someone who is so lost as to what you are talking about that I wouldn't even know if I had a T-10 that did whatever you are talking about.

[TERRYRUSHMAN]

Hi I Think I Get The Jist Of What Your Saying, It's Just Like Removing The Cmos Battery On The Computer Motherboard If Startup Can't Get Past Bios, Back To Basics On Startup.
The Thing I'm Not Sure About Is Eprom Burning Module,
My Basic Problem Is Boot Failure Message On Startup Pmp-140 Wont Accept Firmware Current Version 1.24 I Have Tried Everything To Recover It But No Luck. If You Can Suggest Anything I Would Be Willing To Listen, Hope I'm Barking Up The Right Tree And Not Just Barking Mad.
Best Regards
Terry

[Sesquash]

Originally Posted by kajero

Can you explain what you are talking about to someone who is so lost as to what you are talking about that I wouldn't even know if I had a T-10 that did whatever you are talking about.

Ok Kajero...here goes... (taking a sip of coffee....)....

In your T10, and for the most part any other type of technology that allows you to update your Firmware (the resident software program that creates and runs the features of your D.A.P., Video Player, Cell Phone, etc...to name a few items...) there is a chip that is called an (E)rasable (P)rogramable (R)ead (O)nly (M)emory---EPROM that is a very unique chip in that it allows a program to be downloaded to it, and then not need power to maintain its memory of that program. Flash Memory (that holds your downloaded music files on your T10 or whatever (D)igital (A)udio (P)layer---D.A.P.) is a more recent and modern form of EPROMS. An EPROM chip inside your computer (and there is one) holds your BIOS, of which as you know, can be updated when needed.

OK, so with explaining the above, when you attempt to download (update) a version of the FIRMWARE that runs your D.A.P....and for whatever reason, bad BIN file, loss of power, the USER interfering with the process...any combination of the prior---that causes a failure of the D.A.P. to function properly--or worse no longer turn the D.A.P. on----after your firmware update session---this is referred in slang as 'bricking' your unit--in that it much will now just sit there on your desk like an actual builder's brick and do only what a brick does...nothing!

If you did not damage your EPROM chip by usually an electrical issue---then the chip only needs to be cleared of the CORRUPTED DATA that resides within it. When you have cleared out the old data and place the chip into a VIRGIN WAIT STATE, by wiping its memory, then you can attempt to download once more the firmware update or current firmware....and you will return your D.A.P. to full function and usability.

In fact, the iRIVER FIRMWARE UPDATER UTILITY is a USB-enabled software that speaks to the EPROM chip directly---and DOES wipe the memory location within it clear of its content to then be ready to receive or 'overwrite' that memory location within the EPROM with the new, updated firmware code. But....if the firmware that companions with the updater firmware on the EPROM is ALSO corrupted---then the iRiver FIRMWARE UPDATER PROGRAM will not be able to complete its task and communicate with the EPROM update routine.

So...either you throw the router, D.A.P., Blu-Ray video disc player, ...whatever, into the closet and buy a bottle of Jack Daniels whiskey...OR...you access the EPROM chip itself and by connecting two pins (also called bridging the pins) together on the chip (the ' metal 'legs' that surround a chip and that are soldered into a main board (mother board) and make a connection of the two that are connected to the memory locations within the chip that holds the firmware code...and that ERASES that corrupted code in those memory locations---(whew...take a breath here, smile...) you will not be able to use the unit ever again. No firmware to run it---means that it is truly a 'brick' on the desk.

The average owner of a T10 would not have the prior knowledge of memory-clearing of an EPROM chip. Or...what exact pins need to have a connection made to clear out the memory locations. You would need to take it to a friend or technician that does have the prior experience in this matter.

As an example to you--- I attempted to download a new firmware file to my LINKSYS router (of which model lots of people own...very popular) and experienced a main-line power failure as I was doing it. Result? A dead-in-the-water BRICKED router that once worked just fine. It no longer took instruction by the download program from LinkSyS. It no longer did anything when power was applied.

This could be compared in situation like the iRiver FIRMWARE UPDATER PROGRAM no longer 'talking' to the T10. The T10 no longer functioning at all......so now what?!?!? Go out and buy a new one? Nope!!!!

I opened up the router (off warranty), located the EPROM chip, went onto the Net---found the information of what two pins of the 100 that came out of the four sides of the chip needed to be bridged---and then after having bridged them, carefully turned on (applied power to the router) and then removed the connection between those pins while the power was still on.

The result?-----I MECHANICALLY cleared the chip of the corrupted code in the same manner that the FIRMWARE UPDATE ROUTINE within the software would have done, if the EPROM would not have been frozen by a corrupted code.

Still with me?

That is what I have suggested to those that have a 'bricked' iRiver or WHATEVER unit. You can clear the chip and make it ready to take a firmware download (by finding out what two pins ---it is always two to complete a pathway circuit within the chip) once more.

The most important information is:

1... Where is the EPROM chip located within the unit, or whatever named chip holds the firmware?
2... To find (possibly on the Internet) which pins need to have a connection made and their pin numbers---all the 'pins/feet' of any chip have numbers assigned to them, so you can address them for repair or just what I am typing about.
3... Read and follow all instructions (where you found them) and complete the action.
4... Use the FIRMWARE UPDATE SOFTWARE once more to download a clean and non-corrupted firmware update.
5...(THIS IS THE BEST)...and then turn on your fully-restored D.A.P., router, etc, and enjoy once more.

I hope this extended version gives you the understanding that you asked for.

Cheers,

Sesquash

[Sesquash]

Originally Posted by TERRYRUSHMAN

Hi I Think I Get The Jist Of What Your Saying, It's Just Like Removing The Cmos Battery On The Computer Motherboard If Startup Can't Get Past Bios, Back To Basics On Startup.
The Thing I'm Not Sure About Is Eprom Burning Module,
My Basic Problem Is Boot Failure Message On Startup Pmp-140 Wont Accept Firmware Current Version 1.24 I Have Tried Everything To Recover It But No Luck. If You Can Suggest Anything I Would Be Willing To Listen, Hope I'm Barking Up The Right Tree And Not Just Barking Mad.
Best Regards
Terry

Hi Terry! Yes...in your computer, you have the battery that keeps a charge to the CMOS. Exactly. If you were to remove the battery---only the date and time stamps would be lost---but...the FIRMWARE would be retained in the BIOS CHIPS aka: an EPROM chip. BIOS chips only get cleared by having a charge applied to their memory locations and not by having the CMOS battery removed, which does not affect the BIOS firmware/software.

Most older legacy motherboard manuals show where you can flip a switch and or press a button to CLEAR the BIOS entirely and have it ready to accept a new BIOS flash of which the power to do so is made possible by an on-board capacitor. That feature was manufactured in by the manufacturer. Unfortunately----this is usually to be found on 10 year and older systems as you did this under a pure D.O.S. environment and not through Windows. Now, the BIOS is usually only cleared and updated by a download (Flash). Most modern EPROM BIOS chips are socketed, so you can merely put another one in its place instead of having to clear it manually. If the T10 and other iRiver DAPS had a firmware chip that was socketed---you'd only need to remove it..and drop in the new EPROM chip from iRiver. But sadly, that is not provided in hardware---hence my 'get around this' number of posts.

When you do it the way I am talking about (that is..by applying a wire connection between two pins on the chip) you have just created a virtual button for clearing the EPROM where none was provided in hardware by the manufacturer. You perceived this at 100 percent my friend!

Terry, are you telling me what comes up on your T-whatever DAP, or on your computer?

BTW, the EPROM burning module is a stand alone piece of hardware that you would place the EPROM into (a socket on the module for that purpose) and then download your firmware software onto the EPROM. This is done most often today through a 'soft' module (iriver firmware updater) software interface.

Ses

[kajero]

Well, yeah, thanks. I just am glad that my T-10 works. I don't think I will mess anything and keep the player working!

No, really, thanks for the explanation. I guess I kind of got the drift, but still too complicated for me.

[Sesquash]

Originally Posted by kajero

Well, yeah, thanks. I just am glad that my T-10 works. I don't think I will mess anything and keep the player working!

No, really, thanks for the explanation. I guess I kind of got the drift, but still too complicated for me.

------------------------------------------
You're welcome. Bottom line...don't throw away your T10 if a firmware failure renders it unusable. Take it to someone who can reload your firmware by my above stated method.

Cheers!

[virginiajim]

I've just joined the forum, have 3 used t-10's recently purchased, one of which is bricked with nothing obviously wrong inside. I can't tell which chip is the eprom one. I gather it should have a port thru which UV radiation can pass to erase it, but see nothing like that. Googling the chip id numbers doesn't help. If I provide a photo of each side of the main circuit board, will one of you tell me which chip I need to tinker with? If so I'll post them on drop.io and post the file name here for anyone who wants to look.