H Series Live Recording Guide v1.0

[zezayer]

Minidiscs can hold on one disc and so max recording length:

80min at high ( 'CD' ) quality
160min in LP2 ( good quality )
and 320min in LP4 ( this is noticably lower quality ) - i find LP4 hard to listen to, sounds like really low quality mp3s

You can also get High density minidisc players / recorders, wich hold much more per disc u should look into these!

Im sure some other mp3 players do not have a record limit, try looking at things from iaudio or rio. I dont know much about theses tho.

[MAGICMAGID]

I want to record only vocal & speech with h300 or computer.
what are your suggestions about mics?

[homer]

i wonder if you can help... i am tring to use audio technica pro7a mini condenser microphone (used happily for years with sony md) with h320... i seem not to be able to keep AGC setting when using anything but internal microphone... therefore the recording appear very weak and from about 60cm no voice is being picked up... i use it mostly to record conversation in public places and outdoors so a bit different to your interest... but i wonder if you can help... also do you think it will work any better with any of the microphones you recomend?
help...
any one

[me]

I have not been able to get a decent live recording with my H-120.

I bought the unit partly because of its recording as well as playback capabilities.

I first tested its recording capability in my house, and the results were great! I hooked up my SoundProfessional binaural mics (which I had used previously with a minidisc recorder) to the input jack, set it to external microphone, .WAV, set the recording level (I don't recall which level). I put on a CD in my home stereo, stood on the other side of the room, centered between the speakers, and recorded a little. Listening to the recording I made was almost indistinguishable from listening to the original CD. I thought that recording with the 120 seemed great!

But now I've tried recording two live concerts with it, and was disappointed with my results both times. I used the same setup as at home-the SP binaurals, ext mic option. I tried three different level settings--20, 16, and 10, and none of them resulted in a good recording. IN both cases the music was acoustic jazz in a large concert hall with good acoustics. (Although acoustic, no electrified instruments, I think there was some amplification in the hall. Not very loud volume level though, not like rock music.)There was very little audience noise in the hall, audience sitting quietly. One would think those would be good conditions for a good recording.

The recordings sound muddy, instruments not clear, noise, distortion, etc. A cymbal in the recording I made last night doesn't sound much like a cymbal, but like some noise.

Any suggestions on how to improve this? Should I next time try setting the level still lower, like 5? (I sure wish there were recording volume meters on the unit!)

Do people find it really makes a lot of difference to use an external pre-amp (instead of the internal one in the H-120 used for ext mic), with the line-in setting? Is the internal pre-amp no good? What is the difference in using an external pre-amp vs. the internal one?

If so, which one? I know Sound Professionals sells one, rather expensive, I think almost $200. I have just seen on this thread another one, from " Church Audio", less expensive. Is it as good as the SP one? (Anyone compared the two?) What are the differences, or are they about the same? (I notice now, on the Church site, when you click on the picture of the pre-amp alone, it comes to an e-bay page that says " item sold, no more available". When you click on the combo of the pre-amp with binaurals, it comes to an e-bay page selling that combination for $99. (I guess they only sell on ebay.) I already have binaurals though, don't need that combo, just perhaps the pre-amp.)

Do these pre-amps (or either of them) have a level meter on them? If not, one would just be using guesswork to set the levels, like with the internal pre-amp (ext mic setting). What makes them better to use then? Besides the expense, it certainly would be less convenient, in a live concert situation, rather than have the microphones connected directly to the H-120, to have another unit in between, more cords and connections and gizmos to set.

Why did I get excellent recordings in the trials in my house, and poor recordings in an actual live concert?

Any input on how I could get better live recordings would be appreciated. Thank you very much.

[toolmanwill]

what happened is when you use the ext mic setting it only powers the mics with roughly 2.5 v dc, no where near what you really need to power the mics you have to their capabilities.
i have done some testing at home also and found the ext mic setting to distort rather easily.
for concert recording purposes i am currently using a 9v battery box to adequately power my mics, using the line in setting instead (especially now that line in level is controlable!!). All my initial testing with this setup have been great, now iRiver just needs to fix this click bug in the recording every 40 seconds (even using optical )

[me]

Originally Posted by toolmanwill

what happened is when you use the ext mic setting it only powers the mics with roughly 2.5 v dc, no where near what you really need to power the mics you have to their capabilities.
i have done some testing at home also and found the ext mic setting to distort rather easily.
for concert recording purposes i am currently using a 9v battery box to adequately power my mics, using the line in setting instead (especially now that line in level is controlable!!). All my initial testing with this setup have been great, now iRiver just needs to fix this click bug in the recording every 40 seconds (even using optical )

I wasn't aware that those binaural mics need to be powered.

So the battery box is all you need, not a pre-amp? Why can you use the line-in setting, with a battery box? If you are not using a pre-amp, wouldn't you still need to use the ext mic setting, which has an internal pre-amp?

[framesaver]

Originally Posted by me

I wasn't aware that those binaural mics need to be powered.

So the battery box is all you need, not a pre-amp? Why can you use the line-in setting, with a battery box? If you are not using a pre-amp, wouldn't you still need to use the ext mic setting, which has an internal pre-amp?

The mics don't need to be powered, they will simply tolerate louder volumes better the more voltage you apply to them. A 9V battery box plugged into a set of mics usually means they will provide enough signal to be laid down only using line-in, with no amplification at all. Only feeding 2.5V of power your mics on the ext mic setting means they may well have overloaded in the gig setting.

However, I suspect your distortion was probably due to to running the iRiver preamp too high for the sensitivity of your mics. 5 is probably a good setting to try. With my 9V setup, I usually only run between 0 and 3.

That said, I'd recommend getting an SP battery box anyway if you're serious about taping, as the bass roll-off option on these will also control any low-end distortion you can get in small venues etc. Hope that helps.

Originally Posted by homer

i wonder if you can help... i am tring to use audio technica pro7a mini condenser microphone (used happily for years with sony md) with h320... i seem not to be able to keep AGC setting when using anything but internal microphone... therefore the recording appear very weak and from about 60cm no voice is being picked up... i use it mostly to record conversation in public places and outdoors so a bit different to your interest... but i wonder if you can help... also do you think it will work any better with any of the microphones you recomend?

There is no AGC for ext mics - You'll just need to turn up the gain level for ext mic in the record settings, as it seems your AT isn't very sensitive. But it should be fine apart from that.

[me]

[quote=framesaver]

That said, I'd recommend getting an SP battery box anyway if you're serious about taping, as the bass roll-off option on these will also control any low-end distortion you can get in small venues etc. Hope that helps.

QUOTE]

What is the difference between using a battery box and using a pre-amp?

Do either have level meters?

[framesaver]

Originally Posted by me

What is the difference between using a battery box and using a pre-amp?

Do either have level meters?

A battery box simply powers the mics. This allows them to be used on machines that don't provide 'plug-in power'. The more power you apply, the more volume they can withstand before overloading. Most battery boxes are 9V. Mics attached to one put out a faint signal that does not need any amplification to be recorded by a device, though it may need to be boosted using software afterwards. People often use a battery box and the line-in option to record loud sounds such as rock music - This is as there is very little chance of getting 'digital clipping' on a track recorded this way.

A preamp boosts the signal at the same time as applying the power to the mics. They usually have a gain control to adjust the signal level that is being fed from the mics to the recording device. You would need some form of amplification to record quiet sounds such as nature or unplugged music. This is what the ext mic setting does on the iRiver, though it only applies 2.5V of power, whereas an external one would provide 9V.

Battery boxes do not have level meters. Some preamps have a 'clipping alert' - A single LED that lights up when the gain is too high for the sound level in the room. Only the most expensive have any kind of metering, usually several LEDs acting as volume bars.

Unless you're made of money, a battery box with a bass roll-off setting (plenty of these from SP) and an ext mic setting between 0 and 5 should provide you with an adequate solution. Your current mics are probably fine. That clear things up?

[me]

Thanks for the info. I may buy one of those battery boxes, and try it next time.

The music I recorded wasn't very loud at all (acoustic instruments in large hall), so I'm not sure why I had the problems. And as I said, when I tested at home, recording muaic played on the stereo, the results were very good.

One other question--if one has a recording that was recorded at too high a level, with distortion as a result, can it be fixed at all afterwards with software processing? For instance, would normalizing it to 0 db help it?

Originally Posted by framesaver

A battery box simply powers the mics. This allows them to be used on machines that don't provide 'plug-in power'. The more power you apply, the more volume they can withstand before overloading. Most battery boxes are 9V. Mics attached to one put out a faint signal that does not need any amplification to be recorded by a device, though it may need to be boosted using software afterwards. People often use a battery box and the line-in option to record loud sounds such as rock music - This is as there is very little chance of getting 'digital clipping' on a track recorded this way.

A preamp boosts the signal at the same time as applying the power to the mics. They usually have a gain control to adjust the signal level that is being fed from the mics to the recording device. You would need some form of amplification to record quiet sounds such as nature or unplugged music. This is what the ext mic setting does on the iRiver, though it only applies 2.5V of power, whereas an external one would provide 9V.

Battery boxes do not have level meters. Some preamps have a 'clipping alert' - A single LED that lights up when the gain is too high for the sound level in the room. Only the most expensive have any kind of metering, usually several LEDs acting as volume bars.

Unless you're made of money, a battery box with a bass roll-off setting (plenty of these from SP) and an ext mic setting between 0 and 5 should provide you with an adequate solution. Your current mics are probably fine. That clear things up?

[framesaver]

No, very little can be done for it. That's why it's always better to err on the side of caution and try and deal with any hiss you might get with overly quiet recordings that have been boosted in post-recording processing.

[me]

message deleted (I don't see a way to delete, so instead edited with this message, sorry.)

[me]

Originally Posted by framesaver

Unless you're made of money, a battery box with a bass roll-off setting (plenty of these from SP) and an ext mic setting between 0 and 5 should provide you with an adequate solution. Your current mics are probably fine. That clear things up?

However, the Church Audio mini pre-amp (http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...tem=5764259810) costs ($55) barely more than getting a battery box with no bass roll-off or other options from Sound Professionals ($49). (The basic battery box from Church costs $29.)

Anyone here tried the Church pre-amp, battery box, etc.? I first heard about them in this thread, but the post was by the manufacturer, so hardly unbiased. Anyone else tried these and could compare them with the much more costly SP equipment?

[me]

Originally Posted by onlyconnect

I can't remember if it was there before, but the latest firmware (1.63E) *does* have this feature. It is in the Record menu as "voice monitor". In iRiver-speak, voice==microphone.

Tim

1.63E?? The firmware version I see on the Iriver site is 1.60, which is the one on my unit. Where did you get 1.63E?

[zezayer]

Latest f/w is 1.65 - has lots of recording goodies [ Recomended ] got it from irivers website or there is a link in the mistic river FAQ

1.63 is the same as 1.60 but has a different boot up screen for legal reasons.

[me]

Originally Posted by zezayer

Latest f/w is 1.65 - has lots of recording goodies [ Recomended ] got it from irivers website or there is a link in the mistic river FAQ

1.63 is the same as 1.60 but has a different boot up screen for legal reasons.

I just checked the Iriver web site again--http://www.iriveramerica.co m/support/hd/h100.aspx

It says "Version 1.60 firmware brings the latest functions and features for you H100 series player.". No mention of 1.65.

Or is it that the hex file to download there is really 1.65, but they have not updated the description to reflect that?

[framesaver]

You have to go to the iRiver international site, which has all the firmwares for various regions.

A direct link:

http://www.iriver.com/html/admin/etc...WNLOAD_UP_PATH


Plus I don't know of anyone who's actually used a Church Audio rig, but I'd say they work fine. Personally I prefer to have a flexible bass roll-off option than a preamp.

[toolmanwill]

Originally Posted by me

However, the Church Audio mini pre-amp (http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...tem=5764259810) costs ($55) barely more than getting a battery box with no bass roll-off or other options from Sound Professionals ($49). (The basic battery box from Church costs $29.)

Anyone here tried the Church pre-amp, battery box, etc.? I first heard about them in this thread, but the post was by the manufacturer, so hardly unbiased. Anyone else tried these and could compare them with the much more costly SP equipment?

I personally use gear from www.microphonemadness.com ,can't vouch for church audio gear but i'm damn sure its the same type of stuff. They are about in between Church audio and Sound professionals gear as far as cost.

[hes21]

Some updates that I think are important.

1. THere is a fault in the 1.65 (korean at least) where sometimes the file is corrupt, totally missing the header. I don't know how to rewrite it, the basic programs I use try but fail. see here for more information:
Recording GLitch

2. THE GLITCH, as in the recording click only comes through on one channel sometimes. CAn't post screenshot at the moment, but I've recorded lots of seminars and when editing in Audacity the click seems to be only on the right channel. I don't know why, but its not in the left. I'll explore further. I think if I set it to mono it comes through on both. ANy ideas?

3. With 1.65 (korean) it will not save your line in preferences when it goes into standby. you have to go through menu to options to select wav again, as it defaults back to mp3.

[toolmanwill]

Did a recording last Friday at Radio City Music Hall with my iHP-120

anyone interested in it check it out here : http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=39828

I didn't edit out the pops in this recording and they are only in Right channel.

A good test to see the click flaw is to record a sample of 2 or more minutes using line in setting with nothing plugged in. With the recording being nothing but silence, the click is totally noticible especially in a program such as Adobe Audition. Check it out if your curious!