H-140 Sound quality issues

[moralcrusader]

Hello,

After much research, I finally decided to buy an H-140 (well, actually I bought an iHP-140 but you know what I mean). It turned up last week, and I have spent the last few days giving it a thorough testing as I have it for a 7-day 'home trial'.

On the whole, I am very impressed with my purchase. It is well-designed and functional (I am even starting to get used to the joystick) and I have managed to get some good results out of the recording functions (one of my major concerns before I bought it).

I am not going to post my review here as others have already done this in more detail than I would go into, but I do want to raise a few questions that I have which are serious enough for me to consider returning the unit to the store.

Line Out:

Is it me, or is this a complete waste of space? I am a self-confessed audiophile so the two most important features where the quality of the recordings and the quality of the outputs. Maybe I have a faulty unit, but from what I am holding in my hands, the line out is NOT a line out at all. It is (a) affected by the volume level of the player, (b) affected by the equaliser settings. And, wait, this is the real biggy - when the volume goes above a certain level, the signal becomes highly distorted. It isn't even as good as the headphone socket!

The reason this is such a problem for me is because I want to be able to plug my mp3 player into my amplifier and enjoy hi-fi recordings. I suppose I could plug it in via the headphone socket but...

Sound Quality:

The sound quality does not seem very good on my unit. Whilst it is OK if you are listening to it in the background (ie: in the gym etc), when you concentrate on the music through headphones it becomes apparent that the sound suffers from slight distortion in the low-range, tinny hi-range and does not have any depth to it at all. I have tried fiddling with every combination of EQ and SRS setting available, but the fact is, not one setting sounds good for all music. Compare this to the same mp3 file played through my PC soundcard (an old Soundblaster Live Platinum - about 4 years old now) - when played through the same headphones, the mp3 file sounds amazing... and I do not need to use the equaliser on my PC mixer.

I am sure there may be some people who believe that iRiver products are beyond criticism and will take offense at my words, and try and shoot me down by saying that if I was such an audiophile, why am I listening to compressed audio anyway...

Well, I have been recording CDs and vinyl onto my PC for years now, and have found a combination of settings which mean I get perfectly adequate recordings at a bit rate of 320kbps. These are good enough so that when played through my hi-fi via my PC soundcard I can really 'feel' the music.

I am not criticising iRiver, and I would like to state for the record that I am completely gutted by this - I have wanted a product like the iHP-140 for about a year, and now that I have it, the thought that I may have to send it back is very disappointing. What I want to know is whether this problem is atypical, or whether I am expecting too much from my mp3 player... If others cannot relate to this then maybe I should request a replacement model; but if not, am I going to find an mp3 player that actually has a decent built-in amplifier?

What options do I have? Maybe I should wait for the next generation of DAPs? I am not blaspheming, but am I going to get better results from something like the iPod or Rio players? Maybe I will have to sacrifice the recording capabilities, battery life, etc...

Please! Somebody help me!

MC

[Big D]

Welcome aboard, let's see if we can help!!

Originally Posted by moralcrusader

Line Out:

Is it me, or is this a complete waste of space? I am a self-confessed audiophile so the two most important features where the quality of the recordings and the quality of the outputs. Maybe I have a faulty unit, but from what I am holding in my hands, the line out is NOT a line out at all. It is (a) affected by the volume level of the player, (b) affected by the equaliser settings. And, wait, this is the real biggy - when the volume goes above a certain level, the signal becomes highly distorted. It isn't even as good as the headphone socket!

The reason this is such a problem for me is because I want to be able to plug my mp3 player into my amplifier and enjoy hi-fi recordings. I suppose I could plug it in via the headphone socket but...

If you use optical then the volume control does nothing to the signal. I have never had any interference when using my iHP with my home stereo with either anologue or optical. I have the volume at 40 using analogue line out so I guess the distortion is because your amp cannot take the signal load from the IHP. The EQ settings affecting the line out I find useful because my home amp is mainly for home cinema and doesn't have bass/treble controls.

You can always turn the EQ to normal if you don't want to use it.

Originally Posted by moralcrusader

Sound Quality:

The sound quality does not seem very good on my unit. Whilst it is OK if you are listening to it in the background (ie: in the gym etc), when you concentrate on the music through headphones it becomes apparent that the sound suffers from slight distortion in the low-range, tinny hi-range and does not have any depth to it at all. I have tried fiddling with every combination of EQ and SRS setting available, but the fact is, not one setting sounds good for all music. Compare this to the same mp3 file played through my PC soundcard (an old Soundblaster Live Platinum - about 4 years old now) - when played through the same headphones, the mp3 file sounds amazing... and I do not need to use the equaliser on my PC mixer.

I cannot explain why you are getting poor quality sound from the iHP as it is generally accepted as very good. Maybe it is the awful stock earbuds.

I am using Shure e2c earphones and the sound quality is excellent. If you search the forum archive then you'll see that most people think the sound quality is good or excellent. I would suggest trying some better earphones before giving up on the iHP.

Remember that you are comparing something new to something you are very familiar with. It may be that you need to adjust to a new type of sound.

[moralcrusader]

Hi Big D,

Thanks for the support.

The thing is, I am not using the supplied headphones. I have a pair of Sony MDR-EX70LP which I use when I am out an about because they are light and are great at blocking out external sound (and also great at preventing sound leakage for other people). I also have a more heavyweight pair of Sennheiser HD 25 monitoring headphones which I use when at home (either attached to my Hi-Fi or PC when I am mixing, making music etc). Both have very different characteristics, but I am familiar with both.

The real 'control' in this experiment is that I am playing an mp3 file which I *know* sounds excellent through my Sennheiser monitors when played through my PC. When played through the H-140 then it sounds different (not 'bad', but not as good). Whilst I appreciate that I need to allow time to adjust to a different amplifier (after all, that is exactly what is creating the difference in this test) I can't help but feel that the sound quality should be better than it is.

With respect to your first point, my amplifier doesn't have an optical input I have a Rotel amp which is a great all-rounder, but a little lacking in the features dept. but more than makes up for it in sound fidelity.

Oh well, maybe I am just going to have to accept that it just sounds 'different'.

Cheers.

[moralcrusader]

One more thing:

Even with the rather subjective 'sound quality' issue put aside for a second, does anybody else hear distortion through the analogue line out socket? As a simple test, plug your headphones (any make, I imagine, will do) and crank the volume up to 40. If you are NOT hearing distortion then let me know because this unit must be faulty, right? Maybe I am being dense (it wouldn't be the first time), but there should not be ANY distortion through a Line Out, even if it is not 'really' a Line Out...

[Big D]

Originally Posted by moralcrusader

One more thing:

Even with the rather subjective 'sound quality' issue put aside for a second, does anybody else hear distortion through the analogue line out socket? As a simple test, plug your headphones (any make, I imagine, will do) and crank the volume up to 40. If you are NOT hearing distortion then let me know because this unit must be faulty, right? Maybe I am being dense (it wouldn't be the first time), but there should not be ANY distortion through a Line Out, even if it is not 'really' a Line Out...

It depends if your headphones and amp can handle 20mW per channel which is the iHP's max. output. At home I have my iHP at 40 volume when I connect to my amp. I then use the amp to adjust the volume for each song.

I wonder if the iHP's max output is too high for your amp and headphones. Try turning it down till it doesn't distort then use the amp volume control to adjust.

[winty]

Hiya,

Your conclusions are very close to mine. I find the sound quality of the iHP to be mediocre, and certainly nowhere near as good as the Creative Zen Xtra I used to have. However, the iRiver is a much more useable unit, and seems well made and pretty reliable.

Like you, I think it sounds pretty rubbish through the line out into the hifi, but I've not heard anything I would describe as distortion.

I have audiophile tendencies too, but I was not prepared to put up with the garbage that is the Zen Xtra (in my opinion). The iHP has been a very good compromise for me, and I have gradually got used to the sound of it. I was looking for crystal clear highs and detailed tight bass, and what I got was unexciting highs and slightly overwarm bass. I'm now used to this sound, and find that the detail is present in both the high and low frequency ends of the sound. I just wasn't prepared for such a coloured sound characteristic.

I do seem to be in a minority holding these opinions, it seems.

[moralcrusader]

Wotcha.

Well over the course of the morning I have been conducting a number of tests - playing a file on the PC and on the H-140 at the same time, switching headphones between the two etc... I am starting to come to the conclusion that this is probably something I am just going to have to live with. Sure, I could buy another mp3 player, but they are going to have their own limitations (like not being able to record, poor battery life, no radio) so I will have to think carefully.

As for this distortion issue I raised - I will plug my unit into my amp this evening when I get home and see whether the problem is the headphones not being able to handle the output (this seems unlikely, but I have no other explanation as of yet).

Right now, I have Autechre blasting out of my Sennheisers. Now *that* is a good test of frequency range response... it isn't doing too bad at all.

Incidentally, I have also posted a query about playing wav files which I would welcome an opinion on. Anyone? Anyone?

MC

P.S: Maybe the real bee in my bonnet is that I paid ~£270 for this bit of kit and was expecting better sound from it.

[InsjaHH]

Originally Posted by Big D

It depends if your headphones and amp can handle 20mW per channel which is the iHP's max. output. At home I have my iHP at 40 volume when I connect to my amp. I then use the amp to adjust the volume for each song.

I wonder if the iHP's max output is too high for your amp and headphones. Try turning it down till it doesn't distort then use the amp volume control to adjust.

As a new, proud and happy user of the H-140, I've tried to connect it through the line-out with the supplied cable by iRiver to my PC, which has an Creative Audigy 1 Gamer card. At first, I wasn't sure where to connect it to, but I realised that I could just use the microphone input on the card (or am I wrong and should I use an other input?) and it worked .

You probably think, why on earth would you connect the H-140 to the PC since you could also play it through USB; well, it's because I don't have a good hifi-set, but just a nice 5.1-set on the Audigy card for listening to music on my PC.

What I found out is that the sound was quite distorted. I realised that I still had the EQ setting for bass-boost on 16 and treble-boost on 4, so I've put it to normal EQ first. Then I went to the Creative EQ settings and put that to normal EQ as well.

I then lowered the sound on the H-140 itself to say volume 10, increased the volume to my 5.1-set and voila, I had some pretty nice sounds coming out; although I can tell it still has *too much* bass coming out even though the use of normal EQ. This could be heard as some little distortion since the sound isn't "clear". It's not because I've set the subwoofer too loud for the basses, since I don't have this "problem" when just playing something in Winamp on the PC itself (or some music from the H-140 through USB-connection).

Oh well, I hope this is some usefull information for someone, at least I thought it could be. By the way, I find myself listening even to more music by using the H-140 with the PX-200's connected to the DC than my own 5.1-setup... weird eh but true! .

[FlameGrilled]

I still have a pref to the audio quality from the CL JB's, over that of the iHP - but as winty points out, the iHP is more flexible, excluding it's recording mode.

i dont recall the socketry on the audigy mk1, but if it's the non-platinum, it'll have a shared line/mic socket.

so, connecting via that socket, ensure that on the audigy mixer that you are hearing the line, not the mic input ... the mic input is set for a much lower level sig input than the line-in.

As i vaguely recall, the CL cards have a switch on the mixer to select which mode the line/mic socket is used in.

it's little things like that fudge, that ensures i dont buy soundcards without separate discrete line & mic inputs - lose the compromise, and life becomes easier...

[winty]

Insjahh,

I don't recommend plugging a line level signal into a microphone input. Most inputs are similar impedances (e.g. tape, video, a/v, aux, cd, line in) with 2 exceptions, being microphone inputs and the inputs used for vinyl record decks. If you've got a different input you can use, it will work better, and not cause you any problems.

[moralcrusader]

Maybe this whole 'problem' stems from the fact that I am used to hearing mp3s through Creative soundcards....

The plot thickens.

[FlameGrilled]

i'd check the setting for the input on the audigy, i'd say it's almost certain that the input is set to mic mode - where distortion would happen.

also, chech the fader level for the input on the mixer - i dont know what the correct level to set it, but i seem to recall that 75% setting with a input peaking to 0dB should give a peak 0dB indication in a pc based record level indication on most software.

That's held true for most cards i've used, including the Terratec DMX series.. which are the lesser considered alternative to CL Live series cards.

[InsjaHH]

Oh my pretty GOD! I just found out that my Creative Audigy 1 Gamer card does have an seperate line-in input, next to the microphone input. I guess I missed that input because it was already taken for my Hauppauge TV/Radio tuner card, which already uses the line-in for it's sound. After plugging it into that input, it was really astonishing and incredible how *good* the line out of the H-140 really is!! Unbelievable, it really gave me the creeps... 1 word superbe.

As for the statement I made that I heard the difference between playing in Winamp on the PC was better than via the line-out of the H-140... I totally recall that. Even with bass-boost and treble-boost still activated on the H-140 (heck, even with the Creative EQ settings on Pop), it gives an awesome, clear sound with an incredible bass (quite obvious since I used two EQ settings at the same time , though it's not "too much" bass).

Furthermore, I can't hear any distortion now, even when the volume is pushed to 30 on the H-140.

I would like to thank winty and FlameGrilled for sorting and pointing me in the right direction! .
Cheers mates.

[FlameGrilled]

that's ok, Ins.. it's an easy one to make - mistake i mean.

It's easy particularly if you are used to old CL cards that used a common input like the old SB range did, and a hell of a lot of embedded sound chipsets systems use.

Hell, if you dont ferk it up on a simple matter, one day you'll do such a misconnect on something that really matters and damage gets done. So, now you've slapped own paws... you'll do like we all did.. learn and get older/wiser....

i wont even talk about the guy i knew who shoved a 24V DC feed into a mic socket by accident - coz it kinda speaks for itself, back in the old days before opto-isolated connections..

i'd prefer wiser than older, but you can't have it all :P

[FlameGrilled]

As a closing, off-topic mention, MoralCrusader, i remember those Rotel's well.

What can i say.. beyond the fact that when my old amp blew up, if i hadn't got hold of the Exposure or the Cambridge dirt cheap, i'd have opted for a Rotel... as they are the easiest decent cheap amps to obtain these days..

Lacking in features.. sure, like mine, barely more than inputs & outputs & selectors and non-flashy essential audio guts. For recorder/editing/listening of two-track and multi-track downmixes - you dont need a heck of a lot more.

I also use Senheissers for monitors.. EH2200's here, since i dont trust the thieving b*stards at work..., or if paranoia really sets in.. i take the Technics phones with me.

I lost a seriously price set of Grado's at work, once, and that's partly why i'm so harsh about people spending major bucks on daft priced audiophile phones - partly due to 'snake oil' hype, and partly due to how ludicrous it is to be plugging in a grand's worth of Grado's into a portable dAp and going walkabouts..

yeah, i do know someone who did that - and the phones and him didn't fair well when the local light-fingered brigade spotted him. Wanna see a grown man cry - just watch him after someone smashes yer grado's to smitereens... to wind you up..