convince me to buy iHP-140 instead of Creative Nomad Jukebox

[zoltan]

So after EXHAUSTIVE research I have decided to retire my clunky Neo JukeBox and get either iRiver iHP-140 or a Creative Nomad Jukebox 3. I was all ready to order a NJB3 when I came across the iHP-140 and started having second thaughts.

The reoson I chose the Neo and now the NJB3 or maybe the iHP-140 is that the features I want are:
first and foremost a LINE OUT..very important
UPGRADEABLE
SIMPLE file browsing
No Propritary file transfer interface
sound quality!!

portabuility is not that much of an issue since most of the time it sits on my desk at work.

My Neo JunkBox had all of these thing except for sound quality, which was absolute crap, but at the time, I got it because it was the only player I was aware of that was upgradable (ligitamitelly or otherwise)

I'm about to throw down another $318-$438, like next week, So i need to decide this now. So let do the proes and cons: Bold is good

------------------------------NJB3---------------------------------------------iHP-140----------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ins/Outs-----------------2 a out 1 a/o in-------------------------1 a/o out 1 a/o in--------------------------------------------------
Upgraeable--------------yes, proven--------------------------------1.8" maybe later?---------------------------------------------------------
Browsing--------------------based on id3--------------------------------by file structure OR id3----------------------------------------------
Prop. trans.----------------Notmad is not bad?----------------------------does not look too bad?-----------------------------------------------------
Interface----------------------SB1394-------------------------------------USB 2.0---------------------------------------------------------------------
Formats--------------------MP3, WMA, WAV--------------------------------MP3, WMA, WAV, ASF, OGG-----------------------------------------------
Wired remote-------------have to buy it-------------------------------comes with it--------------------------------------------------------------
FM tuner-------------------with remote---------------------------------built in-------------------------------------------------------------------
Microphone----------------with remote---------------------------------built in-------------------------------------------------------------------
Battery life----------------11 hours----------------------------------------16 hours------------------------
Dimensions---------------4.85x5.12x1.38--------------------------------2.36x4.23x0.94
Weight-------------------10.2oz WITHOUT batt.-------------------------6.53oz. WITH batt.-----------------------------
SNR----------------------98dB line, 96dB phones-----------------------90dB---
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bottom Line:------------40GB:$319--------------------------40GB:$438

Portabuility is nice and the extra features are a bonus, but should I really pay $119 more for 40GB when I might not be able to upgrade it, or be able to upgrade to 80GB for $187 more?!

Are the features worth it? Are the features worth being stuck with 40G at least untill a bigger 1.8" drive comes out? I have almost 60G of music now and I dread the thaught of having to decide what to take off of the portable when I get a new album. I am such a musicall pack-rat and I like to be able to carry around ALL of my music so I can listen to whatever my fickle heart desires.

Also, 99.9% of my music is electronica and about 60%-75% of it is DJ mixes or continuous discs, so the 1/2 second gap on the iHP-140 might just be the deal breaker.

What about the sound quality? There is overwhelming testimony about the NJB3 having the best sound quality on the market today, but I've read reviews about the iHP saying that it sounded better than the Ipod also, and some on this forum will claim that it sounds better than the NJB3. I went to my local CompUSA with my nice headphones and listened to the iHP, it sounded good, but it seemed to have the same prob. that I complained about the Ipod, that when I crank it up to max, it does'nt seem loud enough.

It's impossible to find any good, unbiased product comparisons on the internet that are not just spooging over the Ipods with out considering any others, or just trying to sell you one.

Like I said this is a big investment and a very important descision. Any input would be helpfull.

[FlameGrilled]

Given what you've said, and being a JB1 user myself, i can only say that the JB3 would be a complete hit if you take recording to MP3/WAV seriously using it's line-in recording facility - in that respect, the JB3 (and JB1 for WAV record only) literally kicks the poor iHP into the alley in disgrace.

The little things that make for a quiet, quality recording life (sample rate selection, manual seamless track spliting without leaving record mode, and level adjusment) are all things the iHP lacks for it's line-in recording.

Beyond that, and if recording from line-in is irrelevent to you, then the iHP wins.

It's that simple really.. and i'm being fair.

I happened to love the sound on the JB series (the proper ones, not the Zen) and exploited it's sound handling just about every which way.. including using it to demo what WMA & Mp3 low-bit-rate recordings can sound like.. when they are done properly.

But the JB3, without using the remote, is a little more painful to use as a player unless you like pre-queing audio. Me, i simply queued (JB1) about 40 hours of music on a persistent playlist and left it on shuffle/repeat all - and only touched the controls to stop it/shut down/advance track.

In fairness, i bough mine for use as a recorder - i had a iMP-250 for my playback needs.

FG

[tryagain]

I don't think the iHP is for you.

You should not buy a product expecting it to be improved with must-have features for you down the road. Buy it for what it is now.

eg When Toshiba finally makes an 80GB drive, there is no guarantee that it will fit. It could be just 3 mm too big.

Gapless playback is a *possible* firmware upgrade but no one has made any promises. They might never get around to it.

[Mike]

Agree with all the above. The iRiver is notable for being so small with good performance--but you don't need the small size and the Nomad offers other features which are attractive. Sounds to me like the storage size issue already decides the issue for you.

[FlameGrilled]

If an old beastie, the JB series, can manage it.. there's no excuse (except laziness maybe) why some form of seamless play can't be added to the IHP.

Note, the iHP is built around more powerful resources too.

FG

[sweetspot]

Zoltan, this dude over at head-fi is selling his NJB3 with 2 batteries, and the remote (which enables fm radio etc) for $125:

Used NJB3 Great deal if it's in good condition. Just an option for you.
Here's his post

Hello again. I figured it's time to finally let this go. I have a Creative Nomad Jukebox 3 for sale. It's the 20 gig version, and it comes with two batteries and the remote, which adds the radio and voice recording functions to the unit. It sounds fantastic, but since I got the IHP 140, I've been using that much more.

The player is in great shape, and comes with the power adapter, drivers disc, and the firewire cable. I've owned it for just under one year, and have had no trouble with it at all.

Basically I don't need two MP3 players with the same features, so in my house. the Iriver wins.

I'm asking $125 shipped for it.

[FlameGrilled]

Somwhere around that price seems fair, if in good nick and complete (better if you get a decent pair of phones slung in, as the CL supplied stuff is erm... unspeakably... dull).

In the UK, for new price purposes, the NJB3's come in around the cost of a top-end Zen for a bigger drive-equipped example (around 60Gb i think) - but tracking down a legit supplier of them is getting harder these days. A 20Gb would probably, realistically, set you back around £199 UKP (what i paid for my second JB1 from new - before the JB3 came on the market officially).

FG

[cookiemonster]

That's me selling the NJB3 at Head-fi by the way. Thanks to Sweet Spot for the reference.

I actually own this , an IHP 140, and a 3rd Gen Ipod. I do have to say that across the board, the NJB3 has the best sound of the three. Having said that, I give a huge advantage to the IHGP/ETY4p combo. To me, this is the most musical, detailed, evenly present setup I can listen to. The Ety's just come ALIVE with the IHP. The Nomad has the best sound with every other phone out there to me. With my Senn PX200's and Sony V6's, what I said about the IHP/Ety combo holds true for the Nomad/other phone setups. It's much more versatile than the IHP, which to me can come off "colored" with the other phones. It's a much more "rounded and full" sound (without the colorization I find on the IHP) than the IPod, which to me yields a flat sound through and through.

Keep in mind this is all with flat settings, or the EQ turned off.

[FlameGrilled]

Likewise, cookiemonster, all my references to listening are on 'flat' settings, never even bothered using the EQ or EAX on the JB1 - likewise, i never needed to with my formerly owned iMP and iFP players, due to using decent phones.. so you didn't need to EQ fudge to make up for poor response due to cruddy phones :P

And one thing definately in favour of the JB series - they got enough output (easily) on the phones socket, to drive damn near anything in the way of cans. Hell, plug in a pair of lightweights (such as Sony MDR-818's at 16 ohms) and you just gotta pull the volume down from the default.. and it still is loud :P

But it's the recording flexibility that was more the justification for buying a JB1, but the sound quality definately makes all the difference when you are playing back recordings you made in the field.. and reviewing them in transit.

I like the iHP, but it's not soley (on all accounts) a full total JB replacement if you used a JB to it's fullest non-gadget capability.

All rounder, chuck a job at it.. and no hassles - JB series
Player, compact and smart - any decent HDD unit.

[zoltan]

Oh my god! you guy are awesome. Cookiemonster, check your PM! At that price, I can buy the 80G drive and a kick ass pair of headphones for what I was ready to spend!

And thank you all so much for being so informative and giving such un-biased answeres.

After some deep, deep soal searching, I realized that portabuility is nice, and all of those kick ass feature are a real luxury that any high end player should have, but I came to the conclusion that sound quality is very important and because I have so many DJ mixes, I wouldn't be able to tollerate any noticable gaps.

The NJB3 still gaps, mind you, it is not a trully gapless playback. But the gaps are a function of the MP3's being encoded in frames. The length of the gap is, from what I've read, anywhere from 1/20th of a second, to unnoticable, bepending on how the file was encoded and how much space got left over in the last frame.

I also want a player that will not go obsolete. The NJB3's have been around for a long time and Creative continues to release new firmware for it. I've had my Neo Jukebox for 4 years and have been through two harddrives in it. I'm finally sick of it because of it's poor sound quality and flaky-ass firmware which SSI America has not updated since November of 2001.

I'm going to keep a close eye on the iRiver line of players in the years to come. And as the 1.8" drives continue to advane, microdrives get bigger, and Toshiba's amazing 0.85" microdrives catch on, high capacity portable MP3 players will take-off and feature-skimpy players like the oh-so-fashionable Ipods will get left in the dust. iRiver knows what high end players should do, and they are savy about new technology which is evident by their support of future file formats. In time, the public will demand robust technology. The only reoson the Ipods are so populat is because Apple markets the hell out of them and most people don't even realize that other high-capacity players exist. They lost track of the progress after their first initial expoure to the new technology of portable mp3 players back in the Napstrer hey-day when 32M players were a marvel of modern technology. Soon, High capacity will be the price of admission and companies will have to offer cutting edge technology and unique features to stay ahead of the compatition. Right there companies like Creative and iRiver will be puching the forefront of whats to come.

So again, thank you all and I'll definatelly be around, lurking from time to time, keeping up with the latest news.

[FlameGrilled]

I'm neither gonna commend the JB3 purchase, nor say bad about it :P

Instead, i'm gonna say 'good luck' and i hope you like the beastie - i loved my JB1 till it had to move on (i replaced my remaining auxillary domestic s/card with a nice studio-grade affair, so the JB1 became redundant as an attached recorder).

It was sent out the door, with the new owner in tow, and i swear i had a tear in my eye - even though thought that i'd lost bugger all on what i paid for it orginally and cold hard cash in hand couldn't quite keep the old emotions for a now-lost faithful recording buddy in check.

If i had to do it all again, in the production lifetime of the JB1.. nothing would have changed over the buying decision. Likewise, if i needed one again for the same purpose and a JB3 came up, it'd be my portable/tethered recorder of choice.

If the prices were right, i'd even suggest buying the JB3 to be your indoor tethered deck (lash in place of a cassette recorder on a hifi ala MD style) and one of the main three compact HDD's types to be your portable player.

But that's me of course, never one to do things accordng to common wisdom :P

FG

[sweetspot]

Well, I'll commend it then I think that if it's in good condition, you'll absolutely LOVE the sound quality. I've said in previous posts, that I owned the JB3, but that after 2 weeks, it crapped out on me. It was an obvious dud, that could have been sent back for a new one, but I chose not to bother because of my feelings towards HD players in general at that time.(When it first came out) It's obvious to me now, that what happened to mine, was a rare thing to happen to a JB3, and I wish I had gotten a new one. It's really a truly wonderful piece of ass ! (sound quality and all)

yes, good luck man. And enjoy your music ! That is after all, the whole point.

S.

[FlameGrilled]

It was unlucky that your JB3 packed up, SS, as it's definately not the norm for the JB series.

But given a good one, i'm sure few owners who bought a JB to suit their needs, ever regretted it as a bad mistake.

Most keep them long enough, that the deck owes them nothing by the time they do move on - so any money recovered is simply funds to offset the next hunk of expensive beauty they buy

A closing thought - what would it be like if you combined the best of the dev teams from each company (CL and iRiver) and they took their talents to produce an independently developed item or two..??

I think, away from the corporate ties that keep such individuals singing from the company hymnbook, we'd potentially see something that met both typically picky CL and iRiver owner's needs well -without much compromise.

ah.., well.. i guess that's just wishful thinking...

FG

[sweetspot]

Wishful thinking indeed. Problem is, with such a seemingly worthy endeavor, unless those devs happen to be sitting on a crap load of cashola, the probability of them being able to create exactly what they see fit, rather than what their would be investors would have them pump out, is another story. It's usually the ones who have their money tied up in a project, who have the power to turn the project into their very own, and destroy whatever remaining creativity the devs had put into it from the start. Sad isn't it ? On that note though, I'd like you (and eveyone else here) to take a look at this forum and web site, and poke around a bit. What it is, is a site put together by this guy Xin (yes the mini amp maker) and he 's now got a new forum section.

Well, I was thinking about getting one of his new micro amps, but I just recently learned that one of his even newer projects has been picked up and sponsored on a global scale, and will be for sale at all the usual places that one could buy amps and the likes. The new one is called the super dual mini amp. The specs and pics can be found Here It sounds VERY promising to say the least, considering he's been comparing it to a PPE...and in such a tiny package, that's quite impressive. And it's not only him doing the comparing. He's got regular ol' peoople that he sends units to for testing...and they seem to be loving it even in its unfinished stages.

Oh...the real point of this info...is that this guy XIn, is supposedly building/making an Mp3 player as well. He's a real DIY'er, but I"m supposing with connections. He recently said that he put the Mp3 project on hold for a while because he wanted to concentrate on the amp thang', but this may just be what you were talking about. So I advise you to keep an eye on this guy and his work. Oh, his main site is here

[FlameGrilled]

Well the bit about creativity being crushed from within, particularly by those with power/control/investment power, is indeed true. In the open source developments of codecs, whilst money isn't the issue, signs of such developments being 'steered' by the few are all too prominent.

Cash/investment - yep, that kills off many a good idea, so the vain hope of rogues from two good (inherently, if not always) outfits getting together is kinda just wishful thinking of the highest order - the kinda thing that only seems rational a few glasses of the old blood-warmer later

I've read some of Xin's stuff previously - nice ideas, nice projects... he's got hope and a rationally fair shot of getting a player project going

FG

[cookiemonster]

Guys and Gals, let's not sell the Ipod short. The only real negative I know about it is the battery life, and slap on a battery pack and you're good to go. Of the three, the IPod to me again has the "flattest" response and sound quality. If you're any type of audiophile, that's really what you want, even from a portable.
True, marketing has made it what it is, but in reality, they could have marketed it to the audiophiles and it would have gotten a LOT of praise. That's really a testament to it's sound. I mean look at Head-fi. Argueable the IPod is the most popular portable owned by people on the site, and they (as well as I) bring along amps built in tin cans to enhance the experience, so it's not all about asthetics. Plus the potential versatility of it is really outstanding.

With me, the IPod really allows the signature of whatever headphone I'm using to shine and permeate the sound. I can't really say that about the NJB3. Almost everything sounds good out of the NJB3, which is a testament to the quality of the player itself; and why I feel it's the best sounding unit across the board. But if neutrality is your game, I feel the Ipod is the closest of the three. I'm still deciding myself which way I truly want to go.

I'm not trying to flame bait here or anything like that. But sometimes I feel all the negativity geared towards the Ipod is more based on the fact that it's marketed towards the "pretty people" who don't know better, rather than performance. It's not as great as it's portrayed by those "pretty people" and it's merchandising, and the IHP and NJB3 definitely do more as far as a stand alone unit, but there is a lot that good about the IPod.

[cookiemonster]

Having said the above, I also commend the choice of the NJB3. You'll love it. It really, really is one of the best portables out there.