Alternative Firmware Project NEEDS HELP

[BlueBandicoot]

To ALL PROGRAMMERS resident to MisticRiver,

The Alternative Firmware project needs help reverse-engineering and re-engineering the firmware, due to low levels of assistance, and professional help/organisation.

So if you are fluent in the "languages of the Computer" i.e. you can program at a professional level, you are desperately needed. Currently, the project has come to a grinding halt, due to the lack of asisstance and, basically, just work.

If you feel you can help the iRiver community by lending your abilities to the iRiverLounge team, or are just simply interested in the project, please enter the Lounge, at www.forum.iriverlounge.com.

If no-one replies quickly, this is normal -- like I said, not many people are there currently. It is the German holidays too at the moment, and it is looking about as full as an East-End homosexual bar.

But, the main moderator of the forums, Buckaroo Banzai, occasionally visits it to check up on the status of the topic. He has the German forum to run too.

So if you can help, please go to www.forum.iriverlounge.com.
The Alternative Firmware topic is here.

Cheers!

[ceebmoj]

I would like to help is there a web sight or another way to contact the pepol.

Blake

[Mr.Anderson]

I have previous microprocessor programming experience with the 68k motorola (c/assembler programming, display control and kernel development) and would love to help out if my skills are needed . I am also interested in the more organisational tasks in the project.

I think the reason for lack of support from reverse-engineering people is because, at least until now, the technical part of the alternative firmware discussion has been in german. Personally my german is a little bit rusty at the moment and even though I have read the german firmware thread with interest, the fact that it is written in german does not make it any easier to participate... I am sure that the potential developers, hardware specialist and reverse-engineers outside Germany feels the same way. So my hope is that the german discussion continues in the english forum instead and that the knowledge obtained by the german reverse-engineers is shared in english.
I guess you have already discussed or at least thought about which initiatives are necessary to get the project moving, but I'll mention what I think is needed as a basis for a succesful project start:

1.) First of all the project needs to be organized on a seperate project site... a forum thread is not a good communication channel.

2.) The official communication language needs to be english to extend the potential number of participants.

3.) A list of people involved needs to be available to make it easier for people to communicate.

4.) The project should be open for interested participants.

5.) A list of open unfinished tasks and current problems should be available for free hands.

6.) A project manager is needed to coordinate the development and a website administrator/updater/developer is needed.

7.) Obtained knowledge needs to be shared and organized on the site for easy access.

8.) The project should be made public available on i.e. sourceforge.net

9.) We should start a co-operation with the Archos (Rockbox) firmware developers who are looking for a new hardware platform to port their Arhos firmware to. It might be fruitful.

10.) Any other suggestions?

Well... see you in www.forum.iriverlounge.com

[sweetspot]

Any other suggestions?

Yes. Derive, if any, legal implications this may impose upon the developers from Irivers end. Are you guys sure that such engineering is even permitted by them ? I remember a group of guys a while back who were attempting such a feat with the firmware, and were quickly shot down by a cease and desist order from Irivers legal team. So I'd first try and find out whether or not joining such a truly worthy cause is worth the effort.

Developing a seperate application without the help of the original source code or any help from Iriver is of course possible, but when talking about reverse engineering, or using their code to build your own..that may be stepping into murky legal waters...I'm not saying I'm sure about that, just looking out for you guys.

[Mr.Anderson]

You are right, Sweet Spot. It is important to clearify these legal issues at an early stage. But as long we are not distributing any parts of iRiver's firmware we should be on safe ground.

[XavierGr]

Well I am sure that I read somewhere that reverse engineering is not illegal. But altering the code is! So maybe exploiting iRivers firmware isnt illegal but if we want to make a new firmwar its not legal.

If you ask me I dont care about legalities in software. I use cracks and hacks to get some software for free and sometimes I make my one.
I know its illegal but I cant afford the cost.

I think that all this thing about the firmware is illeagal but what can we do if iRiver has a delay policy in the iHP firmware.

I would be glad to help but I think that I am not qualified to do so...

I can only say this, to those which are trying to get a new firmware:
Keep up the good work, we are very dependant from you guys.
Thank you, even if you dont manage to make it true!

[sweetspot]

Um...X, it would be advisable to not carry on discussions pertaining to Iriver and illegal activities as such here. Mistic River does NOT condone or support ANY illegal projects which may implicate a Mistic member in the act of wrongful doings towards them. In other words...if you guys want to even TALK about such matters...don't do it here ! E mail and IM exists for a reason.

I'm not locking this thread because I do not know enough about the subject matter to deem the original material off limits. I suggest though, that if you guys are serious, you either go to our friend Buckaroo's site and discuss it there, (as it seems they are less concerned with the legal ramifications) or get in touch with Iriver and get specific information about this stuff. I just don't want to see Mistic associated with things such as piracy, bootlegging, code hacking etc... Jeff has worked too hard on this site for him to be knocked down a notch and lose some relations with Iriver because of loose lips and silly ventures.

Besides that..something tells me that hacking the firmware would TOTALLY void anyone's warranty. I'm not trying to be a prick about this, and for those who "know me", I'm not even against obtaining what you want (right Spooky? ) even if it means going through "other channels", but come on..a bit of tact and couth would really be appreciated is all I'm saying.

Thanks.

[Mr.Anderson]

Not to worry, Sweet Spot. If there is any illegal actions involved in the reverse-engineering of iRiver's software or hardware, then I don't intend to be a part of it. That would also be a certain derailment of the project. In some cases, the licensed use of software specifically prohibits reverse engineering, but I have not see any such prohibits from iRiver. It isn't illegal either to take a look under the hood of your car to see how it works, right? As long the project don't copy or distribute parts of the iRiver product, there should be nothing illegal about it.

[sweetspot]

That's cool Mr. Anderson, and I'm all with that concept. Iriver is real funny about this stuff from my experience. The guys over at J.RIver (Media Center) have been trying to get in touch with Iriver for some of their source which would enable them (J. River) to write a plug in which fully supported the H series in every way conceivable, but they don't seem to want to cooperate yet for some reason. It's also possible they're waiting for the new FW to be stable before releasing any material to them, but it's their lack of communication (once again) that is making them out to be an enigma.

It's pissing me off too, considering that they've gotten cooperation from every other DAP manufacturer in this regard.

[BlueBandicoot]

Nice one Mr. Anderson, I'll show Buckaroo Banzai these points. He is a fluent English speaker, so are the other people involved.

[edit: *slaps forehead for stupidity*]

[meowsqueak]

The legality of reverse engineering (IMO an important part of technological and engineering progress) will depend on what country you perform it in. The USA has the DMCA which makes it illegal. Other countries have not yet been assimilated, but will be soon (see Australia).

I can help, being an embedded software engineer myself, but I'm reluctant to hack my H120 since we engineers don't get paid much in NZ...

[BlueBandicoot]

I seem to remember someone who had a broken iHP, and identified quite a few of the electrical components, helping them to identify the checksum, or so I think.

So if anyone's iHP brakes in the future, please keep it - we may need it.

[XavierGr]

Originally Posted by Sweet Spot

Um...X, it would be advisable to not carry on discussions pertaining to Iriver and illegal activities as such here. Mistic River does NOT condone or support ANY illegal projects which may implicate a Mistic member in the act of wrongful doings towards them. In other words...if you guys want to even TALK about such matters...don't do it here ! E mail and IM exists for a reason.

I'm not locking this thread because I do not know enough about the subject matter to deem the original material off limits. I suggest though, that if you guys are serious, you either go to our friend Buckaroo's site and discuss it there, (as it seems they are less concerned with the legal ramifications) or get in touch with Iriver and get specific information about this stuff. I just don't want to see Mistic associated with things such as piracy, bootlegging, code hacking etc... Jeff has worked too hard on this site for him to be knocked down a notch and lose some relations with Iriver because of loose lips and silly ventures.

Yes Sweet Spot you are right, I am sorry, I just told my opinion about hacking the firmware.

MisticRiver is a great site and I dont want any troubles for it either.

[APz]

This thing reminds me of the history of PC. As IBM's competitors wanted to clone IBM PC, they had to come up with legal ways of designing a computer, that runs the same software. And how did they do it? Simple.

First there was a team, that disassembled the whole thing and wrote very specific specs on how it works.

Then another team designed a machine based on those specs. And that's how the "100% IBM compatible PC" began it's life.

Naturally the copyright laws have changed, but in theory if someone would disassemble iRiver's software in the countries like Russia or China, and then release the specs, I think it would be possible to write open software OS and GUI for iRiver's players.

The point is, that if the new OS is 100% written by someone else, iRiver has nothing to sue them for.

Just my 0.20 euros

[ManchesterUnited4Life]

What's happened to the longer thread over at the iHPLounge ???

[BlueBandicoot]

Those forums are having problems at the moment, I think...

[soulcarver]

IIRC one of the developers was saying at the german iHP forum that he was off. That because the new iPod is now much cheaper, and therefore his main argument of not buying one has gone.

If my iHP brakes one day, I'll give it to you, but I hope that's not too soon

[bani]

there are NO legal issues with writing replacement firmware for the iriver.

you aren't circumventing any copy control mechanisms, you aren't enabling access to any copy protected media. you aren't circumventing any protected access mechanisms. there isnt even any copy protection systems on the ihp-1xx. the DMCA does not apply. full stop.

the only possible issue would be if you copied iriver's firmware verbatim and just changed little bits here and there. but thats not what a replacement firmware project should do -- it should only reverse engineer the firmware enough to decode how to talk to the hardware, then write new firmware from scratch.

look, most (maybe all?) of the ihp hardware is off-the-shelf commodity hardware. there's no magical secret access codes on the hardware protected by the DMCA or any other law. you can go to the hardware vendors themselves and get the programming specs. gcc even supports a variant of the iriver cpu!

the only mystery at the moment is how all the hardware is wired together and how its addressed by the cpu. but again theres no copyrighted secrets there, it can all be legally reverse engineered by tracing the iriver firmware as it runs, then writing your own code from scratch to do the same thing.

iriver could whine all they like, but they have NO legal basis to prevent you from doing anything with the hardware that you like.

[bani]

Originally Posted by Sweet Spot

Are you guys sure that such engineering is even permitted by them?

there is nothing iriver can do to prevent it. iriver can't revoke legal rights you have under the law (federal or state). for example, iriver could write in their license that 'usage of the iriver requires you to send us your first born child'. but that wouldnt make it legal.

doesnt matter if its permitted by iriver. theres nothing they can do to stop it. and its 100% legal. they cant revoke your rights to do so.

and no, the DMCA doesnt apply because youre not bypassing any copy protection mechanisms.

[mags]

in general reverse-engineering is legal, but what the dmca does is make it illegal to break encryption for such purposes.

yes, even when the 'encryption' in question is something as pathetically weak as css on dvds, and probably even when whatever simple algorithm is used to encode the iriver firmware between its modifiable state and its device-loadable state.

I think right now some stupid garage door company was suing 3rd party makers of garage door remote controls, because the 3rd party vendors designed their remote controls by 'cracking' the 'encryption' on the original company's remotes. same deal with lexmark suing makers of 3rd party printer ink cartridges, after lexmark started putting little electronic chips on its ink carts. fscking pathetic.

[bani]

the garage door company and lexmark both lost in court, btw.