30GB+ iRiver?

[skcrip]

Ok first of all, hello!

(Not sure if this is right forum for this question?)

I'm new here but have had my H120 for many many years now and it has served me well. So well in fact that I would like to buy a new iRiver. Ideally I want a bit more a capacity (30GB min) and some nice new shininess! But it seems that iRiver produce mainly flash based players these days so I'm a bit stuck.

Basically my question is this, is there anything currently or soon to be available that would fulfill my needs? Beyond the capacity I'm pretty flexible on other features. Do I need a hard drive based player or is there any flash based players that are expandable to near 30GBs?

Many thanks for any help

skcrip

[caramelsoul]

You could plump for the H140 or even upgrade your hard drive to a 40GB one.

Oh, and welcome to MR

[skcrip]

Cheers!

I did think about an H140 but it's quite an old player now isn't it? The vain part of me would like something a bit more exciting! Have iRiver just abandoned hard drive players altogether?

[Step666]

Originally Posted by skcrip

Have iRiver just abandoned hard drive players altogether?

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: yyeeessss...

[musichound]

Thread moved to appropriate forum.

[skcrip]

So... (and i'm showing ignorance here) is it likely that the 30GB mark will be approached by a flash based player anytime in the near future? Perhaps a player with a couple of SD slots so it could be expanded? Or am I just going to have be buy a bloody iPod?!

[Step666]

There are flash players out there already that will pass the 30GB mark, once large enough SDHC cards become available.
The Cowon D2 being a prime example.

[skcrip]

Ok so flash has caught up, excellent!

Will probably keep a watching brief over this till iRiver release something appropiate (i.e. small, expandable, and with a DAB radio).

Cheers!

[Step666]

Well, not quite yet, it hasn't.
But it's just a matter of time.

Also, there are flash SSD on their way - very soon you'll be able to replace your iHp-120's HDD with a flash drive.
And that's where the fun starts, 64GB SSDs have been unveiled already...

[skcrip]

I like sound of this!

It sort of confirms my suspicions as well, it seemed to me that not too much had changed in the 'big capacity' MP3 player market since I bought my ihp120. And as it's still running fine I figured I wanted to wait until something truly advantageous came along, sounds like I won't have to wait 'too' long!

[Hostile]

I'm in a similar position: after my iRiver H340 died a horrific death, I suddenly realised that there is NO other player on the market which comes even close. 40GB just barely contained all my music, and my collection has doubled since I first bought the H340: where the hell is my iRiver H380?

[hedgomatic]

*grumble* stupid timeouts.

So, I'm sure this question has been asked before, but does anyone know *why* iriver has ditched the HDD/large capacity players? People are still buying large-capacity ipods, and we know that there's a pretty big demand on this forum alone for H1xx and H3xx players. Dual-layer HDD's have come down a lot in price, and there have been a lot of advances in flash memory capacity (although still pretty expensive), yet not a peep from iriver about integrating either of these technologies into a new generation of large capacity DAP's.

Has anyone contacted the company about this, either individually or as a group? If not, it may be time for some grassroots action, because I've spent a long time looking, but sure haven't found any good alternatives.

-hedge
(who is f'ing sick of not having the album she wants to listen to on her tiny S10.)

[Step666]

Originally Posted by hedgomatic

So, I'm sure this question has been asked before, but does anyone know *why* iriver has ditched the HDD/large capacity players? People are still buying large-capacity ipods, and we know that there's a pretty big demand on this forum alone for H1xx and H3xx players. Dual-layer HDD's have come down a lot in price, and there have been a lot of advances in flash memory capacity (although still pretty expensive), yet not a peep from iriver about integrating either of these technologies into a new generation of large capacity DAP's.

Well, the dominance of the iPod is rooted in the HDD field. Every other manufacturer is getting out before they go bust because, yes, components are cheap, which drives prices down, which then makes margins even smaller. And in a business where margins are small, little companies tend to go under - and make no mistake, iRiver are a little company.
Demand for flash-based players is increasing, especially as capacities increase and prices decrease, making them an ever more viable alternative to HDD-based DAPs for a lot of people. Also, it's a market were less innovation is required to make a product desirable - look at the Clix/Clix2, they offer very little that is different from many other DAPs yet there's considerably more interest in them than there ever was for the old HDD-based DAPs.

Really, it was the only thing they could do...

Originally Posted by hedgomatic

Has anyone contacted the company about this, either individually or as a group? If not, it may be time for some grassroots action, because I've spent a long time looking, but sure haven't found any good alternatives.

It won't work.
We tried repeatedly regarding issues with the iHp-100s and the H300s and nothing ever came of it.

Originally Posted by hedgomatic

(who is f'ing sick of not having the album she wants to listen to on her tiny S10.)

Er, well, two points.
Firstly, why not load said album onto it...
Secondly, there are considerably larger DAPs available from iRiver than the S10. Just because 1 or 2 GB isn't big enough for you, that doesn't mean you have to consider a HDD-based DAP.

[hedgomatic]

Originally Posted by Step666

Demand for flash-based players is increasing, especially as capacities increase and prices decrease, making them an ever more viable alternative to HDD-based DAPs for a lot of people. Also, it's a market were less innovation is required to make a product desirable - look at the Clix/Clix2, they offer very little that is different from many other DAPs yet there's considerably more interest in them than there ever was for the old HDD-based DAPs.

That's why I asked about HDD/large capacity players, not large capacity HDD players. I am not tied down to a HDD over flash, but I'm sorry, what's their biggest player now? 8GB? That ain't large-capacity, and capacity is the issue. I mention HDD's only because they are currently less pricey than comparable volume flash memory.

As a side note, I think you're right, they'll have to switch to flash sooner rather than later if they want to get in and stay in the market. Sexy sells, and for all the H340 is, sexy it's not. They've gotta get out some sweet-ass lookin' high capacity, tiny sized flash player to really be in business. But that's absolutely possible, and they aren't doing it. Heck, sell me a clix with 60gb, and I'm sure I'll complain about the cost and how I don't care about video, but I'll still buy it.

Originally Posted by Step666

Firstly, why not load said album onto it...
Secondly, there are considerably larger DAPs available from iRiver than the S10. Just because 1 or 2 GB isn't big enough for you, that doesn't mean you have to consider a HDD-based DAP.

I don't have all my albums on it because I have more than 2GB of music (shocking, I know...). No, I don't need to listen to more than 2GB of music at once, but that's in a perfect world where I have all my music with me at work and can swap stuff out to listen to on the ride home. I am continually frustrated by the desire to listen to an album that I *own* but didn't think to put on my player hours ago, and 8GB wouldn't solve that problem. You could've sussed out the logistics for that one on your own, snarking at me doesn't help anyone.

As for contacting iriver, don't you think that telling them there's a market for large capacity players is a little different than requesting support? They don't have to spend time responding to us or fixing a problem with a player they already have your money for, they just have that little extra bit of data that *may* help them go, "hmm, at least n people want to buy a large capacity player. there's money to be made!"

-hedge

[Step666]

Originally Posted by hedgomatic

That's why I asked about HDD/large capacity players, not large capacity HDD players. I am not tied down to a HDD over flash, but I'm sorry, what's their biggest player now? 8GB? That ain't large-capacity, and capacity is the issue. I mention HDD's only because they are currently less pricey than comparable volume flash memory.

HDDs will always be larger and cheaper than flash memory, so the largest practical/available capacities of DAP will always be HDD-based. Even if we consider the lower limit for the definition of 'large capacity' to be quite low, say greater than 10GB (a nice round number), the vast majority of DAPs that fall under that are HDD-based.
That said, in many ways, until HDDs are no longer used in DAPs, the boundary where 'high capacity' DAPs start could, not unfairly, be considered where flash-based DAPs stop and HDD-based DAPs start.

However, lexicographical ponderings beside, whilst you deigned to 'mention' them because they are 'less pricey', I focused on them because that's reality. High capacity flash-based DAPs are still some way away.

Originally Posted by hedgomatic

As a side note, I think you're right, they'll have to switch to flash sooner rather than later if they want to get in and stay in the market. Sexy sells, and for all the H340 is, sexy it's not. They've gotta get out some sweet-ass lookin' high capacity, tiny sized flash player to really be in business. But that's absolutely possible, and they aren't doing it. Heck, sell me a clix with 60gb, and I'm sure I'll complain about the cost and how I don't care about video, but I'll still buy it.

You say you'd buy it but you wouldn't, because the price would so high you couldn't afford to.
iRiver can't afford to push the boundaries like that, they can't buy the components in large enough quantities to lower the price enough to be practical, at least not before the prices have naturally dropped to that point. And by then, everyone would be producing 64GB flash-based DAPs anyway, so it would no longer be such an amazing product, it's just be average again.

Also, as an aside, you couldn't, at this point in time, you'd be hard-pushed to fit 64GB of flash memory into something the size of the Clix2.

Originally Posted by hedgomatic

I don't have all my albums on it because I have more than 2GB of music (shocking, I know...). No, I don't need to listen to more than 2GB of music at once, but that's in a perfect world where I have all my music with me at work and can swap stuff out to listen to on the ride home. I am continually frustrated by the desire to listen to an album that I *own* but didn't think to put on my player hours ago, and 8GB wouldn't solve that problem. You could've sussed out the logistics for that one on your own, snarking at me doesn't help anyone.

To be fair though, your comment never specified that you suddenly wanted to listen to the album - it sounded more like you just weren't loading up albums that you quite often want to listen to. And you say that 8GB wouldn't solve that problem but it would certainly help, would it not?

As for 'snarky', I think you'll find they were just points of common sense offered up in an attempt to try and be helpful. But, frankly, if you went and bought a player that was so ill-suited to your needs, that's your problem and the rest of us would rather not hear about it.

Originally Posted by hedgomatic

As for contacting iriver, don't you think that telling them there's a market for large capacity players is a little different than requesting support? They don't have to spend time responding to us or fixing a problem with a player they already have your money for, they just have that little extra bit of data that *may* help them go, "hmm, at least n people want to buy a large capacity player. there's money to be made!

Go ahead, try it. I bet round here you'd get a few people to agree with you but they'll still ignore you. Even if you could get 1000 names on a petition, that's nothing, nowhere near enough to make it worthwhile developing and producing a DAP. Not to mention that which you dismissed out of hand - their history of ignoring customers
So, like I say, try it if you want but it won't work.

Also, to answer your question why iRiver should help the people who have already bought from them. Precisely because, as I have mentioned previously, they're not a very big company and the difference between keeping your existing customers happy and pissing them of could make or break them.
Far more so than trying to cater to a minority of potential customers.

[hedgomatic]

some cutting&pasting to organize my responses- let me know if you think that's warped your meaning at all.

Originally Posted by Step666

You say you'd buy it but you wouldn't, because the price would so high you couldn't afford to.

Balls. I don't need all these internal organs!

Originally Posted by Step666

Also, as an aside, you couldn't, at this point in time, you'd be hard-pushed to fit 64GB of flash memory into something the size of the Clix2.

Really? BUSlink's 64GB keydrive doesn't seem that much bigger than other keydrives, but I haven't seen it live.

Originally Posted by Step666

HDDs will always be larger and cheaper than flash memory, so the largest practical/available capacities of DAP will always be HDD-based. Even if we consider the lower limit for the definition of 'large capacity' to be quite low, say greater than 10GB (a nice round number), the vast majority of DAPs that fall under that are HDD-based.
That said, in many ways, until HDDs are no longer used in DAPs, the boundary where 'high capacity' DAPs start could, not unfairly, be considered where flash-based DAPs stop and HDD-based DAPs start.

However, lexicographical ponderings beside, whilst you deigned to 'mention' them because they are 'less pricey', I focused on them because that's reality. High capacity flash-based DAPs are still some way away.
...
iRiver can't afford to push the boundaries like that, they can't buy the components in large enough quantities to lower the price enough to be practical, at least not before the prices have naturally dropped to that point. And by then, everyone would be producing 64GB flash-based DAPs anyway, so it would no longer be such an amazing product, it's just be average again.

So you're saying that high capacity DAP's from anyone other than Apple aren't financially viable...

Originally Posted by Step666

Go ahead, try it. I bet round here you'd get a few people to agree with you but they'll still ignore you. Even if you could get 1000 names on a petition, that's nothing, nowhere near enough to make it worthwhile developing and producing a DAP. Not to mention that which you dismissed out of hand - their history of ignoring customers
So, like I say, try it if you want but it won't work.

...and there's nothing we can do about it, so we need to just shut up, mod the remaining H1xx and H3xx series, and wait for the prices to drop on flash memory? I appreciate the lesson in economics, but you can see where it's easy to get disgruntled, right?

Originally Posted by Step666

Also, to answer your question why iRiver should help the people who have already bought from them. Precisely because, as I have mentioned previously, they're not a very big company and the difference between keeping your existing customers happy and pissing them of could make or break them.

Absolutely agreed, but there have been plenty of companies that have pissed off customers but they keep coming back. Major airlines, Apple, Microsoft, etc. It's a cruddy thing to do, but they wouldn't be the first company to come out with a new product, slap a sticker on that exclaims, "fixes all the bugs from our old product," and ignore everyone who just wants support.

Originally Posted by Step666

To be fair though, your comment never specified that you suddenly wanted to listen to the album - it sounded more like you just weren't loading up albums that you quite often want to listen to. And you say that 8GB wouldn't solve that problem but it would certainly help, would it not?

So instead of assuming that I suddenly have a hankering for something I don't have loaded, you figured that I, what, don't know how to swap out music on my DAP? Flattering.

I really don't think that 8GB would help much, which is why I got an s10 instead of a clix. 40GB would solve all my problems (DAP-related, anyway), but I just needed a holdover device. In that way, the s10 works; it's still easier than carrying CD's around, it's rechargable, all that, but boy do I miss my 340.

Originally Posted by Step666

As for 'snarky'...

Apologies, and likewise guilty, but see argument above. Your common sense points were based on the assumption that I have no common sense. I've never met a person who responds well to such an accusation, sensible or not.

-hedge

[Step666]

Originally Posted by hedgomatic

some cutting&pasting to organize my responses- let me know if you think that's warped your meaning at all.

If you can warp me any more than I am already, you'll be doing well

Originally Posted by hedgomatic

Balls. I don't need all these internal organs!

To quote Homer Simpson - 'I'll sell my liver... I can live on one liver, right?'

Originally Posted by hedgomatic

Really? BUSlink's 64GB keydrive doesn't seem that much bigger than other keydrives, but I haven't seen it live.

I would imagine that the flash drive is thicker than the Clix2. Even two 32GB SDHC cards would be a squeeze.
The Clix2 is pretty tiny and you can bet the chips inside it are pretty tiny too.

But that was merely an aside...

Originally Posted by hedgomatic

So you're saying that high capacity DAP's from anyone other than Apple aren't financially viable...

Yes.
All evidence points that way - Apple's gigantic market share, the fact that everyone else is running like rats fleeing a sinking ship...

Originally Posted by hedgomatic

...and there's nothing we can do about it, so we need to just shut up, mod the remaining H1xx and H3xx series, and wait for the prices to drop on flash memory? I appreciate the lesson in economics, but you can see where it's easy to get disgruntled, right?

That's not quite what I was saying, it was more 'scream and shout all you want, you'll make no difference' - you don't need to shut up but you may as well, all you'll do is get more frustrated if you don't.
I can see perfectly clearly why it's easy to get disgruntled, I empathise entirely. I just also see why doing so is futile and that you'll be much happier calming down and looking to other possible solutions.

Originally Posted by hedgomatic

Absolutely agreed, but there have been plenty of companies that have pissed off customers but they keep coming back. Major airlines, Apple, Microsoft, etc. It's a cruddy thing to do, but they wouldn't be the first company to come out with a new product, slap a sticker on that exclaims, "fixes all the bugs from our old product," and ignore everyone who just wants support.

That's true.
They all tend to be big companies though, who can attract more customers than they lose (also, I think you'll find that the numbers they do lose will be proportionally far lower). iRiver can't afford to lose as many customers as Apple or MS (they probably haven't got as many as either of those two lose...).

Originally Posted by hedgomatic

So instead of assuming that I suddenly have a hankering for something I don't have loaded, you figured that I, what, don't know how to swap out music on my DAP? Flattering.

No, not really.
I merely took your words at face value, which is all one can do on an internet forum.

Originally Posted by hedgomatic

I really don't think that 8GB would help much, which is why I got an s10 instead of a clix. 40GB would solve all my problems (DAP-related, anyway), but I just needed a holdover device. In that way, the s10 works; it's still easier than carrying CD's around, it's rechargable, all that, but boy do I miss my 340.

Ok, so 8GB wouldn't solve your problems but it surely wouldn't be any worse. But you have to accept that in having bought a 2GB player, you will be limited in what you can carry around.
I have well over 80GB of music but use an 8GB Nano as my primary player, however I would never blame anyone else if there were a song I didn't have that I wanted to listen to (which happens regularly) - when I bought the player, I accepted the limitations of it, which is what everyone has to do.

As for your S10 being a 'holdover', that's perfectly understandable but just don't use it as such in wait of a new high-capacity iRiver device. There likely isn't one coming and, even if there were, it wouldn't be here for a long time.
At the end of the day, we all have to face facts - there isn't a perfect DAP out there and all we can choose from is what's available, more's the pity...

Originally Posted by hedgomatic

Apologies, and likewise guilty, but see argument above. Your common sense points were based on the assumption that I have no common sense. I've never met a person who responds well to such an accusation, sensible or not.

Well, like I say, I merely went on what I saw to be the 'face value' of the words, I'm sorry that upset you.
And, come on, give me some credit - my first suggestion would've fixed your problem

[hedgomatic]

Originally Posted by Step666

As for your S10 being a 'holdover', that's perfectly understandable but just don't use it as such in wait of a new high-capacity iRiver device. There likely isn't one coming and, even if there were, it wouldn't be here for a long time.
At the end of the day, we all have to face facts - there isn't a perfect DAP out there and all we can choose from is what's available, more's